Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[Guest Poster]

Let's say a close friend of yours--a girl--comes up to you, tells you that she loves you, then leaves for another country for a very-very long time without telling you 'why', would you think she's being a scumbag or protective? Even if she is your/my close friend, I still think that's a very scumbaggy-ish thing to do leaving you in the dark, telling you 'please go out with me', then heads off to another country. The first thing that gets in my head is 'psyche, I'm just playing with you. Get real' and I'd certainly hate her for it.

I don't think either answer was correct with Lilly, most likely. I don't really think Lilly intended to confess to Hisao at all at the summer home. Like with her tutor crush, she probably decided not to act on it. (at least not until she made a decision) Then Hisao had a heart attack and an overly emotional Lilly blurts out her confession and it takes her a while to realize she just messed up BIG time. Nothing malicious about that. Her not telling Hisao about Scotland, hoping to sort out her conflicting loyalties on her own is consistent with her tendency to avoid problems instead of tackling them head-on. From Lilly's point of view, the best thing she could do for Hisao after dragging him into this mess, was not causing him alarm until her decision was definite. Problem was, even at the time Hisao found out through Akira, Lilly's decision was only half-hearted.

Naturally, this procastinating, waffling and beating around the bush wouldn't have happened to Shizune if she were placed in a situation like that. But to be fair, a lot of Shizune's problems wouldn't have happened to Lilly either.

I used to say that Lilly is a Mary Sue with no flaws, but on a second reading of her route, I realized that I was basically doing what everyone else in the story does: falling for Lilly's act. Lilly constantly projects an outside face that appears like the perfect woman: kind, refined, and selfless. Her whole character is based around reaching down to help others, as exemplified by her relationship with Hanako. But because she's so focused on doing what others need her to do, when it comes to claiming something she wants (Hisao), she can't find the guts to stand up and break her "perfect daughter" persona and be selfish for once.

Hisao also falls for it. Since Lilly always seems in control of the situation, Hisao simply got accustomed to hanging back and letting Lilly handle things, usually with good results. (heck, in Hanako's route, taking Lilly's advice over Hisao's own instincts is required for the good end) By the time he finds out about Scotland, he resents her decision, but seems lost as to how to deal with it. Instead of realizing Lilly isn't perfect and does make mistakes, he fails to call her out and goes along with her like he always did. This is somewhat of an inversion to Hanako's route...in Hanako's route Hisao's mistake is thinking Hanako was too fragile to handle her problems on her own. In Lilly's route, Hisao's mistake is thinking Lilly is too perfect to need his input with her problems. So it's a bit of a deconstruction of what happens when you start thinking of someone as a Mary Sue.

[Doraleous]

You see, Lilly is so perfect that she needed some bigass external pressure to make a mistake. Hisao and Lilly together belong in a Disney movie.

That's not really true. Lilly has several flaws. The thing is, they're all rather subtle and Lilly tends to mask them well with her polite speech and lady-like behavior. Without some external crisis, some of those flaws might not have reared their head until way after KS actually ended. Most of Shizune's flaws come forth from her actions in certain situations. Most of Lilly's flaws come forth from her inactions in certain situations. The latter ones are harder to notice immediately, hence the need for some external pressure.

I concede that I might've been wrong and my views very extreme but, seeing the overwhelming popularity of candid girl Lilly, I can't give up on the Shizune cause. And you can't even call me biased because Rin is my favourite girl/story/route/path through and through.

Arrrr, forward, Shizune supporters, our fictional leader is neither mean nor manipulative, she's SUITED FOR LEADERSHIP and LOOKS OUT FOR THE ONES SHE'S FOND OF, NO TRYING TO PLEASE GREEKS AND TROJANS HERE.

[Mirrormn]

Let's say a close friend of yours--a girl--comes up to you, tells you that she loves you, then leaves for another country for a very-very long time without telling you 'why', would you think she's being a scumbag or protective? Even if she is your/my close friend, I still think that's a very scumbaggy-ish thing to do leaving you in the dark, telling you 'please go out with me', then heads off to another country. The first thing that gets in my head is 'psyche, I'm just playing with you. Get real' and I'd certainly hate her for it.

I don't think either answer was correct with Lilly, most likely. I don't really think Lilly intended to confess to Hisao at all at the summer home. Like with her tutor crush, she probably decided not to act on it. (at least not until she made a decision) Then Hisao had a heart attack and an overly emotional Lilly blurts out her confession and it takes her a while to realize she just messed up BIG time. Nothing malicious about that. Her not telling Hisao about Scotland, hoping to sort out her conflicting loyalties on her own is consistent with her tendency to avoid problems instead of tackling them head-on. From Lilly's point of view, the best thing she could do for Hisao after dragging him into this mess, was not causing him alarm until her decision was definite. Problem was, even at the time Hisao found out through Akira, Lilly's decision was only half-hearted.

So very true. During that scene in the field of wheat, Lilly's usual premeditative and deliberate mannerisms have been ripped away by her thoughts of fear and loss. At any other time, under any other circumstances, Lilly would have kept hidden her feelings for Hisao in order to protect him from the pain of her eventual departure, but in that moment, she is simply unable maintain her facade of perfection.

[Paddy]

This team:



Not really, but honestly there are good points to both of them.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Team Lilly. There is no alternative. No discussion. No argument. No mercy.

Since, you know, she's the best girl in the game.

[Megumeru]

Team Lilly. There is no alternative. No discussion. No argument. No mercy.

Since, you know, she's the best girl in the game.

I guess some people decide to give a blind eye to her glaring flaws.
...
...
no pun intended.

[Wander]

Team Lilly. There is no alternative. No discussion. No argument. No mercy.

Since, you know, she's the best girl in the game.

I guess some people decide to give a blind eye to her glaring flaws.
...
...
no pun intended.

Hard to believe when you used italics.

You know, it's a good thing different people are attracted to different kinds of personalities and I would guess that it has something to do with the evolutionary process. After all, it wouldn't be good if everyone was looking for that one type of perfect partner unless everyone was the same... Which... uh... Again, wouldn't make sense in evolutionary terms. So, you know, preferences and shit.

[BobBobberson]

Nope, Lilly for the win! She's way hornier than Shizune.

I would be open to the idea of a threesome though

[Out-All Knight]

I'll choose being a Kirk instead. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheKirk, someone's got to balance them since both of them are the exact opposite of each other and it is the reason why they have some conflict. I propose a friendly duel between them!

[Guest Poster]

Yeah, Misha isn't know for being the best Kirk in the world.

[ArazelEternal]

Team Lilly. Hands down. Perhaps Im not so bothered by the fact that she hid the truth about Scotland. I can understand why she did at first.

[ArazelEternal]

Team Lilly. There is no alternative. No discussion. No argument. No mercy.

Since, you know, she's the best girl in the game.

I guess some people decide to give a blind eye to her glaring flaws.
...
...
no pun intended.

We all have glaring flaws. Every. Single. One. Of. Us. No one is an exception. Even my closest friend has them, but he is still my closest friend. It depends on whether you focus more on their flaws, or on the person themselves, and whether or not your going to be simple enough to let those flaws choose for you instead of getting to know the person first.

[Megumeru]

Team Lilly. There is no alternative. No discussion. No argument. No mercy.

Since, you know, she's the best girl in the game.

I guess some people decide to give a blind eye to her glaring flaws.
...
...
no pun intended.

We all have glaring flaws. Every. Single. One. Of. Us. No one is an exception. Even my closest friend has them, but he is still my closest friend. It depends on whether you focus more on their flaws, or on the person themselves, and whether or not your going to be simple enough to let those flaws choose for you instead of getting to know the person first.

Well said.

But that doesn't mean she should receive more flak than her because--as I quote you--'whether or not you're going to be simple enough to let those flaws choose for you instead of getting to know the person first.

now that I'm free, I can start thinking again.
I've been waiting for this...

Let's review Shizune's character:
-She's bossy and competitive--by choice? Maybe. Possibly her attempt to impress or gain the approval of her father--possible father complex, but we'll never know.
-She's honest, fair, and just. Honest, you said? Shizune mentioned how sign language weighs 'more' than basic speech, and she proves it. Give me one time in the story--just ONE TIME--where she lied to Hisao. As in, directly LIED about something such as hiding crucial facts/information? She never did. When Shizune is in a relationship, she make sure the other party knows about her inside and out--including meeting her tsundere-of-an-asshat-of-a-father. If you miss this or is unable to understand her character by the end of her arc and branded her as a 'manipulative bitch' solely because her character, then either you're not reading hard enough, not thinking hard enough, or Shizune is just not for you--it is the love interest of the intellectuals, so you might as well leave that clique.

Fair, you said? Blasphemy! No, really. Fair. When Shizune pressured Hisao into the student council early on, does she still pressures him along the other route? No. She let him have that choice to join or not to and when he decided not to, she leaves him be. Then there is Hanako's game, and keeping with her competitive spirit she congratulates her telling her it was a good match (sadly, she found the game too slow and her attempt to make the game more interesting backfired into scaring the poor girl). Now add Misha into the mix in the relationship, and a look into ACT III. Even when she is going out with Hisao, she never abandons Misha (note that she took her out shopping where Misha cuts her hair) in an attempt to keep their relationship balanced between the three of them (in most cases, the other 'couple' party tends to leave the other friend behind, or the 'alone' party leaves the two--e.g. Lilly and Hanako). It didn't work because Misha decided to leave them instead which causes further complication since she doesn't want to share this with Shizune and/or Hisao (she did in the end, but it was too late by then). Add the fact the work of the student council they all have to cover--considering she is the president (put yourself in her shoes), you might have the temptation to give more work to your subordinates (Misha and Hisao) while you laze your ass off. Does she do that? No. She divides them equally--more often than not, she burdens herself more than the rest of the lot, bit more than she can chew, and ends up stressing herself (add Lilly's procrastination in the mix and you see where I am going). Do you bitch about an incomplete assignment when one of your partner in a science project decided to do nothing and you have to cover for him/her? I bet you do. She receives the same kind of treatment with the school, and I say she has the right to bitch about when someone is procrastinating more than necessary.

Just. Actually, that is similar to fair so read the above or--better yet--cross that off.

Manipulative. That's a pretty 'popular' trait she is recognized with, is it? True, she is manipulative--but is it because she is, or is it because she is just playful? If she is that manipulative, she wouldn't have that game after Shanghai where she bets Hisao about 'going back to Yamaku the fastest'. So I say again, is she really manipulative or just damn playful? if she is playful then--ladies and gents--you just realized that this is her way of expressing herself to Hisao. This includes their scene in the roof with Hisao, the chess scene, the banter Hisao and Shizune exchange in the student council office, and much-much more that I may not remember.

There's many more to write about her, but I'll save it for next time (I need the ammunition) and move to the next.


now let's look at Lilly's character:
The popular one, mainly as quoted by some to be the 'ideal' because of her manners, blonde, tall, and blue eyes character she gives. Now an overview:
-Lilly is motherly, evident in her character and her treatment towards Hisao and Hanako in both their arcs. BUT, is this really what she is gunning for--her 'motherly' character, that is. We'll get to that after we cover the next few.
-Lilly is well-mannered as presented in her usual daily tea ceremony, a 'Yamato Nadeshiko' if you will. This is also evident in her personality and character--BUT, is this all her character or is it another facade?

After I read through themocaw's thoughts on Lilly, something struck in me that made me re-read her arc. There is that nagging feeling I have when I read her route, but I am unsure of it--I think themocaw strike that bell first before I do, so as I quote:

Looking back on Lilly's flaws, I'm seeing what they are much more clearly: Lilly is a subversion of the Yamato Nadeshiko ideal.

There's an ideal in Japanese, and certain other Asian cultures, of the refined, selfless woman who lives for her friends and family. Lilly's character looks at the dark side of that ideal: when you sacrifice yourself for others, what's left?

I used to say that Lilly is a Mary Sue with no flaws, but on a second reading of her route, I realized that I was basically doing what everyone else in the story does: falling for Lilly's act. Lilly constantly projects an outside face that appears like the perfect woman: kind, refined, and selfless. Her whole character is based around reaching down to help others, as exemplified by her relationship with Hanako. But because she's so focused on doing what others need her to do, when it comes to claiming something she wants (Hisao), she can't find the guts to stand up and break her "perfect daughter" persona and be selfish for once.

I agree to this view, but the one thing that strikes me is this:

"I realized that I was basically doing what everyone else in this story does: falling for Lilly's act"

This strikes me, made me think a little harder on her character and what she really is. By far after re-reading it again, I'm beginning to see that Lilly is the most manipulative girl in the mix of the five heroines because:
1. She lied to Hisao about Scotland
2. Her character, shown as "refined and well-mannered" is used to cover most of her problems (leaving for Scotland, her other 'dark' emotions (when Kenji tripped her) and herhealthy adolescent sex drive--how's that for 'well-mannered'?)

This eventually got me thinking a little bit further about Lilly as a character:do we really actually know everything about her, or is it just another facade she put up to mask herself? She's motherly to Hisao and Hanako, but is her 'white-knighting' an attempt to appeal 'good', or just to make herself feel 'reliable' with consideration of her procrastination tendency (which makes her unreliable--add her lack of sight, and you have a set)? Have we actually meet her parents in person(if you want to know about someone, meeting the parent face to face gives a lot of answer)? We met Shizune's family in her arc, Emi's mom, Hanako's...negligible, while Rin's parents is very much reflected in Nomiya and Sae in her route (or pretty much abandoned her, which makes her parents negligible like Hanako).

What about Lilly? You only speak to her mother in the phone, but did you learn anything about Lilly from her?

This would mean that you have learned almost nothing about her character aside from her possible well-mannered nature, her healthy adolescent sex drive, her knack of procrastination, and her motherly nature (which could be her cover to feel 'reliable' to others)--hell, her 'HASD'(abbreviated) contrasts her manners and upbringing (Catholic school background. If you've been in one, you know how strict the laws there are--especially in dorms) contrasts one another instead of complementing it. If she is the most manipulative person in the mix of five girls, then I'll say to her 'congratulations for successfully fooling thousands of readers with your act'. There's more to her character, and I intend to uncover and analyze her thoroughly--there's more to her than meets the eye.

that, is my say.

[ArazelEternal]

I agree that Lilly is definitely not without her flaws and Shizune definitely does have her perks.

However, just as being too selfless has its problems, causing you to forget about yourself and sacrifice your life and health for others, being too honest can also have consequences as well.

For example, if Lilly had told Hisao about he summons back to Scotland right away, would that really have been good for him? He would have been worrying about it the entire time instead of living on with her happily for the rest of the time that he could. That kind of stress would be bad for someone with his heart condition.

Indeed she is too selfless and she learns this at the end of her arc, after Hisao nearly dies on her a third time. She finally decides to do something for herself, and tell her parents to but out and let her live her life. It nearly cost her the life of the one she loved the most, and it caused her much stress as well panicking over him because of something she inadvertently caused.

With Shizune, there probably are things that she should have left under wraps. You cant tell a person everything about yourself. You tell them too much, they may become appalled with you, or lose faith in you. Somethings are better left unsaid. A good ship captain would never tell another of his crew that he may not be able to sail the ship through a particularly bad storm, because the crew and others would loose faith in him, and ultimately cause panic.

I think ultimately both characters would need to learn to balance those parts of themselves, between being too honest and too selfless, too secretive and too selfish.

[rydiafan]

For example, if Lilly had told Hisao about he summons back to Scotland right away, would that really have been good for him? He would have been worrying about it the entire time instead of living on with her happily for the rest of the time that he could. That kind of stress would be bad for someone with his heart condition.

So she lied for his health ... that isn't heartless at all

let's think about this ... Lilly was gonna be a coward and just gonna run off to Scotland because she didn't face the fact that it might do him some damage ... wouldn't the motherly nature in her tell her to idk prepare him for some time away .. but no she was gonna go with out telling him

and one other thing Hanako in both Lilly's and her own arc only got better socially when Lilly wasn't around to mother her ( prove me wrong Lilly fans ) so i have question if Lilly's motherly nature was part of Hanako's social problem