Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters

What team are you ??

Shizune
150
22%
Lilly
443
66%
Other
79
12%
 
Total votes: 672

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Mysterious Stranger
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:51 pm

Mirrormn wrote:Based on this evidence, I'd say Shizune's route is the longest, with Rin in second place, which matches my initial intuition about the subject. I think the music selection count metric is probably more accurate than the scene count metric, since music tends to change pretty regularly, whereas scenes can be pretty variable in length. Obviously, a word count would be the most accurate metric, but it's not one that I'm willing to go through the trouble of calculating.

P.S.: Shizune's route is also the longest in terms of in-story time.
I actually quite literally got a stopwatch (read: iPhone app) and recorded the time it took for each girl's route to get from the beginning of Act II to its respective good ending. I used skip mode, obviously.

There was some error, on the level of maybe one second or two in total (per arc, that is), when it came to picking the requisite choices as lightning-fast as possible, but these are the rankings I calculated. I can't recall the exact times I got, so I'm just putting forth the best estimates my memory is offering right now.

Emi's - around 8 minutes and 30ish seconds
Rin's - around 7 minutes and 55 seconds
Shicchan's - approximately 7 minutes, 30 seconds
Lilly's - 7 minutes and 11 seconds, thereabouts
Hanako's - about 5 minutes and 50 seconds

I was pretty shocked that Emi's was the longest by a rather fair margin. And of course, Hanako's was the shortest by a substantial amount as well. I'd say this is probably the most accurate one could get without going for a full-on word count, since it basically counts the number of actual text boxes.
Oddball wrote:I thought Shizune's was the longest.

Maybe it just feels the longest.
Haha, I do think Shizune's arc lags a bit towards the middle. As Mirrormn pointed out, it also takes place over the longest period of time, so that probably contributes to it feeling as long as it does as well.
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

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Mirrormn
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mirrormn » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:18 am

Mysterious Stranger wrote: I actually quite literally got a stopwatch (read: iPhone app) and recorded the time it took for each girl's route to get from the beginning of Act II to its respective good ending. I used skip mode, obviously.
Hrm, I'll admit that's definitely a more accurate measurement than musical selections. However! Skip mode skips text boxes (or paragraphs in soliloquy mode) at the same rate regardless of how much text is in them, so if one route tends to use more or fewer words per text box than another, then the skip mode time -> word count conversions between them will not synchronize perfect. So it's still an approximation!

Unfortunately, I think Shizune's word count per text box is probably lower than the others', considering how often she just says "...". So Shizune may not be the longest route after all.
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Megumeru
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Megumeru » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:00 am

Let me get this straight...

Longest in time line or longest in playtime?


If I measure in timeline it'll be like this:
Legend:
'S' for Shizune
'R' for Rin
'H' for Hent--Hanako
'L' for Lilly
'E' for Emi

(start)--------(school festival)------------------------(Track meet)-------------------------------------------------------(Tanabata)------------------------------------(Summer Vacation)---------------------------------------------------(Graduation)->
(S)--------------[Star gazing]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[when stars embrace]---------------------------[Weekend at Shizune's]------[A Story Shizune may never know]-----------(end)->
(R)-------------[By the mural]-----------------------[A favor for Emi]--[Dandelion]-[Art exhibition]---(end)---->
(H)---------[Transient Fireworks]------[Hanako's Birthday]--[Lilly leaves]--[reconciliation]-(end)-->
(L)-----------[Promise of time]---------[Hanako's Birthday]--[Lilly leaves]------------------------------------------------------------[Lilly Returns]----------------[Weekend at Lilly's]---[Lilly's second leave]-----------(end)--->
(E)-------------[Is Carnival]-------------------------[Run Emi, Run!]----------[A day at Emi's]--[Graveyard]---(end)-->

If I'm assuming it right, Hanako's arc would be the shortest time line wise. You can't exactly measure playtime wise since not everyone has the same reading speed--unless of course, you're willing to gather a poll of 'total playtime' on a number of volunteers, add them up, then divide it by the number of volunteers to find the average playtime of a single route; then again, this is just an average calculation so it's not the exact value.
Stop watch is a more accurate way to measure it, but I have to agree with Mirrormn for this that skip mode skips everything at the same rate regardless of how much text is in them so I wouldn't use the method.

That's my timeline from what I can make out. BUT! Considering the 'time inaccuracy'-stunt the authors decided to pull on each route, humorously it could end like this:


(start)--------(school festival)------------------------(Track meet)-------------------------------------------------------(Tanabata)------------------------------------(Summer Vacation)---------------------------------------------------(Graduation)->
(S)--------------[Star gazing]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[when stars embrace]---------------------------[Weekend at Shizune's]------[A Story Shizune may never know]-----------(end)->
(R)-------------[By the mural]-----------------------[A favor for Emi]--[Dandelion]-[Art exhibition]---(end)---->
(H)---------[Transient Fireworks]------[Hanako's Birthday]--[Lilly leaves]--[reconciliation]-(end)-->
(L)-----------[Promise of time]---------[Hanako's Birthday]--[Lilly leaves]-----------[T I M E P A R A D O X T I M E P A R A D O X T I M E P A R A D O X P I M E T A R A D O X]--[Lilly's second leave]-------(end)--->
(E)-------------[Is Carnival]-------------------------[Run Emi, Run!]----------[A day at Emi's]--[Graveyard]---(end)-->


From this we can conclude that Lilly, aside from being a procrastinator, is also a time traveler. So procrastination is never an issue for her.

For any interested fic authors, here's a good idea:
With that timeline, there's a 'plot point' you can make with Rin, Hanako, and Emi concerning you know...'Tanabata festibal' or 'Summer Vacation'

Anyway, jokes aside...
Timeline considered, Shizune will have the longest timeline, followed with Lilly, Rin (or) Emi, then Hanako. I'm uncertain with Rin to be honest; her story could end after or before Tanabata--concerning the art exhibition, it could happen during or after, although I am currently assuming before. Still, I might have to reread her arc again to see.

but this is what I think (pretty neat, huh?)

PS. I broke out out my chart now. Wait for the puppets to come...
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
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Mysterious Stranger
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:49 pm

Megumeru wrote:Let me get this straight...

Longest in time line or longest in playtime?
...actually, we were talking about playtime. But, er, nice chart.
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

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Mirrormn
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mirrormn » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:52 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Megumeru wrote:Let me get this straight...

Longest in time line or longest in playtime?
...actually, we were talking about playtime. But, er, nice chart.
Indeed. And
Megumeru wrote:You can't exactly measure playtime wise since not everyone has the same reading speed
As I said earlier, I think word count would be a sufficient metric for determining playtime.
Katawa Shoujo OST Transcriptions and Arrangements: Consolidated list

Katawa Shoujo Music Index and Table of Contents

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WorldlyWiseman
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:52 pm

Oddball wrote:I'll agree that the decisions Hisao makes change the character he is, but I don't think that has anything to do with him not having a personality. People, especially teenagers, are highly influenced by those around them. They tend to want to fit in and start to show at least a slight bit of interest in the things that there friends are interested in.

Yeah, Hisao's choice change the type of person he is, but that's true of everyone.

I can't think of any point in the game that Hisao's actions don't make sense giving the context of what led to them. He doesn' always do the right thing, but he always wants to help people, although there are times when he doesn't know how and other times he feels he's gone as far as he can and just can't do anymore. Theres quite a few things that never change about the character. He's typically a nice guy, laid back, doesn't have a lot of hobbies, don't make friends easily, likes science, has no idea how to understand women, and so on and so forth.

Now it's true that Hisao is a different person by the end of the game than how he is at the beginning, but all signs point to him being somewhat different before his heart acted up on him as well. It changed how he handled some things and how he saw some things, but at the end he's still the same guy... more or less.

I feel like we're having the conversation that Hisao had with Rin. She was talking about having to force herself to change or destroy herself to be something different, when Hisao was trying to tell her that sometimes people just change. It's just something that happens.
Of course people don't behave randomly. All of Hisao's actions have context, either strictly defined by the writers (text given in the story), or implied by actions being taken. As the players of this novel, we have some say in what actions are being taken, within sensible limits (because of things not being random). When we choose an action for Hisao, we are changing not just what he does at that moment, but also what we can imply about him as a person at that moment, which changes in our minds what kind of person he was before that moment.
The reason I'm going off on this whole tangent is that if we are considering the effect any of the girls had on Hisao we have to decide how much of these seeds of change Hisao brought with him into a given path. The detached observer Hisao probably wouldn't be motivated by Shizune at all, eve if we could force him to pursue her. The Hisao we can get to pursue Shizune is the assertive one, which might mean that many of the positive effects Shizune had on him were things that he had in him all along, and that detached observer Hisao never had.

Basically, I'm starting to question my own claim of how much Shizune changed Hisao for the better. This kind of discussion might warrant its own thread so I'll just stop here.
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by rydiafan » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:29 pm

The thing is there is no right answer for who is better for hisao .... we are debating over something that is based on opinion not facts ... we become attached to our favorite girl because of personal prefence ... so we sit here and debate with undying passion that so and so is the best for hisao ... i love it

Let's look at this another way ... hisao is suppose to be us ... we are making the choices not hisao so do you want the shy girl , the in ur face girl , the motherly girl and so on ... as much as we like debating ... we won't change other peoples minds ... i like lilly the least and shizune the most ... and no amount of whatever will change my personal opinion on that

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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:49 pm

rydiafan wrote:The thing is there is no right answer for who is better for hisao .... we are debating over something that is based on opinion not facts ... we become attached to our favorite girl because of personal prefence ... so we sit here and debate with undying passion that so and so is the best for hisao ... i love it

Let's look at this another way ... hisao is suppose to be us ... we are making the choices not hisao so do you want the shy girl , the in ur face girl , the motherly girl and so on ... as much as we like debating ... we won't change other peoples minds ... i like lilly the least and shizune the most ... and no amount of whatever will change my personal opinion on that
Are you trying to challenge Squall Leonhart's title for Master of the Ellipsis, rydia?
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Megumeru » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:21 am

rydiafan wrote:The thing is there is no right answer for who is better for hisao .... we are debating over something that is based on opinion not facts ... we become attached to our favorite girl because of personal prefence ... so we sit here and debate with undying passion that so and so is the best for hisao ... i love it

Let's look at this another way ... hisao is suppose to be us ... we are making the choices not hisao so do you want the shy girl , the in ur face girl , the motherly girl and so on ... as much as we like debating ... we won't change other peoples minds ... i like lilly the least and shizune the most ... and no amount of whatever will change my personal opinion on that
I am not much of a fan of supporting the 'Hisao is us' idea; I mean, seriously, does the game even allow you to change his name to say....Johnny Bravo? No, right? Fate/Stay Night doesn't let you do that because the character already has an established persona right at the start of the story (the difference is, Hisao has drawn eyes--Emiya doesn't). Most VN that were often used as 'fap-material' have the protagonist named: 'The Protagonist' and had nothing concrete or solid that supports him aside from the all-too-generic simple/basic background of 'This is my childhood friend, I grew up like this, my parents are this or that, etc.'--now that you can say 'generic protagonist is us'.

Instead, I prefer seeing it as "stepping into Hisao's shoes". Hisao is Hisao; it's not us, not Johnny from next door, not Bobby from the circus, and especially not your dog who somehow ends up crying all night after contracting 'the FEELs'. It's Hisao telling us his story on 'how I met this girl' (with alternate universes!), just like how Emiya told us in F/SN 'How I get to bang this girl' (also with alternate universes!). Strictly speaking, all routes can be considered canon--officially, Shizune's route is canon 8)

well, jokes aside...

I prefer to see Hisao not as 'separate characters' in each of the girl's respective route, but as a character that has a given background/stance/personality before he met with either one of them (imagine if all five 'alternate' Hisao met in some wacky freak-time-space-loop or something ala Suzumiya Haruhi. They'll start arguing about 'who is the best girl'--like what we are doing now, had a fight, then decided to switch around and try them all...kinky.). I believe we can establish Hisao's character, moral, standings, personality, etc2 by looking, reading, and analyzing his reaction and responses towards his target from all the routes.

Thing is, do we even have the motivation for that? I mean seriously, as I've said before, even Kenji is much more interesting to analyze than him--sorry Hisao.
Last edited by Megumeru on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Oddball » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:57 am

Let's look at this another way ... hisao is suppose to be us
I'm not into science and I would never dress like he does, so he's obviously not me.
Are you trying to challenge Squall Leonhart's title for Master of the Ellipsis, rydia?
Now I'm trying to picture Squall as a student at Yamaku.

I can see him sitting there, chatting with Hisao about relationship problems.

Squall: here's this girl... no matter how many times I try to tell her I'm a loner and not interested she just keeper ... I dunno... hanging around trying to act romantic. You ever get that?
(imagine if all five 'alternate' Hisao met in some wacky freak-time-space-loop or something ala Suzumiya Haruhi. They'll start arguing about 'who is the best girl'--like what we are doing now,
I actually tied writing that. I couldn't make it work.
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by alien.marksman » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:28 pm

We're not Hisao.. We're his conscience.
Those little voices in his head that steer him towards one direction or the other.
If it wasn't for the choices we make (Supposing we had the option do 'do nothing') Hisao would live a dull lifeless existence in his dorm room, or a Many Picnic.

So in a way while we're not Hisao, we influence his actions to serve our intentions. We are the ones who convince him to pursue the Fastest thing on No Legs/Cloud Cuckoolander/Yamato Nadeshiko/Damaged Cutie/Student President/Feminist Conspiracy.

Bringing us to the many lengthy discussions we have here on the boards.
Which Girl is best? Who's route is canon? What if..? Etc Etc.

There can be no absolute answer, for as many story arcs as there are, for as many people who have played the game, there will be just as many different answers.
(No, that's not an invitation to do the math and give me an analytical figure)

I can respect other people opinion if they think Hanako is the Perpetual Winner of the Miss Moe Universe Award, though I may not share that opinion.
Just as I expect them to respect my choice as Shizune as the #1 Girl.

I will say one thing though based on observations.. If some lab somewhere started to make cybernetic/robotic versions of our waifus.
The Lilly and Hanako models would be the most popular (probably leading to lengthy waiting lists for those models to be delivered. Suckers)
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Guest Poster » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:03 pm

The conscience-theory is a pretty good description of the player's role, though obviously it's not completely accurate. In Hanako's arc, for example, the player doesn't even get the option of choosing to take advantage of a drunken Hanako...Hisao immediately dismisses the option. (so obviously he has a conscience that functions independantly from the player and most of the options aren't really options a conscience would handle since the consequences of most choices aren't immediately clear) Maybe a better description for the player's role would be that he acts as Hisao's gut feeling in what's a good option to take and what's not.
I prefer to see Hisao not as 'separate characters' in each of the girl's respective route, but as a character that has a given background/stance/personality before he met with either one of them (imagine if all five 'alternate' Hisao met in some wacky freak-time-space-loop or something ala Suzumiya Haruhi. They'll start arguing about 'who is the best girl'--like what we are doing now, had a fight, then decided to switch around and try them all...kinky.). I believe we can establish Hisao's character, moral, standings, personality, etc2 by looking, reading, and analyzing his reaction and responses towards his target from all the routes.
I don't believe in 5 (or 6 if you count the manly picnic route) different Hisao's, just like I don't believe in 2 Hanako's. People already defined Hisao's personality pretty well earlier in the thread...he's an average nice guy, doesn't really stand out, never had a lot of hobbies nor did he ever had all that many friends though he liked the ones he did have, never dated before, so the female mind is a mystery his science-loving brain can't wrap its head around. He tends to be pretty passive when left to his own devices. (which is again an explanation for the fact he doesn't have a lot of hobbies) He's not competitive in sports, but pretty compatitive in games. (though not to the crazy degree Shizune is, more like Hanako) He's very uncomfortable talking about his past and his accident and doesn't react well when pressured on it, though whether he blows up at people over it is left up to the player. He starts out pretty disorientated as to his life and his future after leaving the hospital and whether and how quickly he sorts things out is mostly dependant on the company he keeps. His love of reading started as a coping mechanism, but now he enjoys it genuinely. We see a similar phenomenon when he steps onto Emi's or Shizune's routes...Hisao is pretty reluctant on his own, but when faced with a friend who has a forceful personality he allows himself to be dragged along until he starts enjoying the more active life for real. (something similar is also seen with Hanako when she joins the newspaper club in Lilly's route) In Lilly's and Hanako's route, Hisao doesn't develop that part of himself and remains the less outgoing person he was when he left the hospital.

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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mirrormn » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:10 pm

I'd say that Hisao is the same person regardless of which route you take, but due to the circumstances of his accident, and the abrupt disconnect from his former life, he's a bit lost about his own identity. Thus, he is very susceptible to the personalities of others rubbing off on him, and that explains why he seems to mirror the characteristics of whichever girl he ends up pursuing. There's a void in his self-identity at the beginning of the story, and he always lets his focus on his potential partner fill some of that void and define part of his new identity. This leads to 5 different versions of Hisao by the end of the main arcs, but it's not because of any kind of crazy time travel or parallel universe phenomena; it's just 5 different paths of normal character development.
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Megumeru » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:24 pm

I don't believe in 5 (or 6 if you count the manly picnic route) different Hisao's, just like I don't believe in 2 Hanako's. People already defined Hisao's personality pretty well earlier in the thread...he's an average nice guy, doesn't really stand out, never had a lot of hobbies nor did he ever had all that many friends though he liked the ones he did have, never dated before, so the female mind is a mystery his science-loving brain can't wrap its head around. He tends to be pretty passive when left to his own devices. (which is again an explanation for the fact he doesn't have a lot of hobbies) He's not competitive in sports, but pretty compatitive in games. (though not to the crazy degree Shizune is, more like Hanako) He's very uncomfortable talking about his past and his accident and doesn't react well when pressured on it, though whether he blows up at people over it is left up to the player. He starts out pretty disorientated as to his life and his future after leaving the hospital and whether and how quickly he sorts things out is mostly dependant on the company he keeps. His love of reading started as a coping mechanism, but now he enjoys it genuinely. We see a similar phenomenon when he steps onto Emi's or Shizune's routes...Hisao is pretty reluctant on his own, but when faced with a friend who has a forceful personality he allows himself to be dragged along until he starts enjoying the more active life for real. (something similar is also seen with Hanako when she joins the newspaper club in Lilly's route) In Lilly's and Hanako's route, Hisao doesn't develop that part of himself and remains the less outgoing person he was when he left the hospital.
Yeah, that's what I meant.

...damn it wording, I hate you English language...haaate...
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:51 pm

Mirrormn wrote:I'd say that Hisao is the same person regardless of which route you take, but due to the circumstances of his accident, and the abrupt disconnect from his former life, he's a bit lost about his own identity. Thus, he is very susceptible to the personalities of others rubbing off on him, and that explains why he seems to mirror the characteristics of whichever girl he ends up pursuing. There's a void in his self-identity at the beginning of the story, and he always lets his focus on his potential partner fill some of that void and define part of his new identity. This leads to 5 different versions of Hisao by the end of the main arcs, but it's not because of any kind of crazy time travel or parallel universe phenomena; it's just 5 different paths of normal character development.
I never suggested timey-wimey buggery, I was just examining the 'normal character development' you've mentioned from a story-telling point of view. There are constants in Hisao's personality, but the traits implied by the choices we are given are far-reaching. However, being implied, they exist mostly in the reader's mind. If Hisao decides to be up-front with Lilly about his heart during act 1, either Hisao had been touchy about it up to that moment and was somehow inspired to be honest, or he had been softening up about it over time up to that moment. The distinction is imaginary, even if it alters how we personally read Hisao. We are attempting to define something that was vague by design, which why I was starting to back off. This thread is supposed to be a celebration of Shizune and how men who don't understand an assertive women won't vote her up in the polls :P

If anyone is enough of a KS grognard to pour over the choice branches and figure out how many potential Hisaos there are, another thread might be in order.
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

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