Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters

What team are you ??

Shizune
151
22%
Lilly
443
66%
Other
79
12%
 
Total votes: 673

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Lolzster
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Lolzster » Thu May 17, 2012 11:37 am

Enemy | wrote:You completely missed my point. He said Lilly was dependent on people, so I said that by his logic, Rin was as well.
Thats true, Lilly is not what I would call dependent on others, she is more a person who you can rely on rather than someone who relies on you
ImageImage
Favourite routes: Lilly>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Shizune

Most Feels in route: Lilly>Emi>Hanako>Rin (frustration doesn't count as feels)> Shizune

Yes I love Lilly and hate Shizune... deal with it :)

Synthus
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Synthus » Thu May 17, 2012 11:45 am

Enemy | wrote:
ravenlord wrote:Ah, so you're just trolling then. Weak troll is weak, but have fun with that anyway.
You completely missed my point. He said Lilly was dependent on people, so I said that by his logic, Rin was as well.
If you weren't so busy congratulating yourself on your biting wit and sarcasm, you'd have noticed that I'd addressed that. Let's leave aside the fact that your comparison made no bloody sense in the first place.
Lolzster wrote:
Enemy | wrote:You completely missed my point. He said Lilly was dependent on people, so I said that by his logic, Rin was as well.
Thats true, Lilly is not what I would call dependent on others, she is more a person who you can rely on rather than someone who relies on you
Reality check: being blind is a major fucking impediment regardless of how well-adapted you are to your disability. Drop her off at a busy mall or subway station at peak hours and she's fucked.

I don't know about you, but the novelty of having to accompany her on her grocery shopping trip just so she can find the right brand of milk is going to wear off very quickly.

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Enemy |
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Enemy | » Thu May 17, 2012 2:02 pm

Synthus wrote:If you weren't so busy congratulating yourself on your biting wit and sarcasm, you'd have noticed that I'd addressed that. Let's leave aside the fact that your comparison made no bloody sense in the first place.
Chillax bro, I was explaining what I meant to the other guy.

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metalangel
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by metalangel » Thu May 17, 2012 2:40 pm

Synthus wrote: Reality check: being blind is a major fucking impediment regardless of how well-adapted you are to your disability. Drop her off at a busy mall or subway station at peak hours and she's fucked.
Small anecdote that is in no way indicative of every blind person's experiences: Years ago, I was waiting for a train at Finchley Road underground station in London when a blind person approached me. She asked if I could help her find her train, because there are four platforms serving two lines (Metropolitan line outer, Jubilee inner) and no announcements as to what's just arrived or where it's going. I checked the information screen and told her if she waited for the THIRD train to arrive at the platform she was currently nearest, it would be five stops (all trains, at least, have announcements) to get to her destination station. I offered to wait until it came in ten or so minutes' time to be sure she got on the right one, but she thanked me for taking the trouble and waited while I got on my train.

In contrast, I could navigate around my parent's four storey townhouse (split levels) with my eyes closed when I was in high school.
I don't know about you, but the novelty of having to accompany her on her grocery shopping trip just so she can find the right brand of milk is going to wear off very quickly.
That, however, is different. You'd know what you'd be getting into with Lilly and you'd accept that as part of your relationship and love for her.

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WorldlyWiseman
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Thu May 17, 2012 3:28 pm

metalangel wrote: Small anecdote that is in no way indicative of every blind person's experiences: Years ago, I was waiting for a train at Finchley Road underground station in London when a blind person approached me. She asked if I could help her find her train, because there are four platforms serving two lines (Metropolitan line outer, Jubilee inner) and no announcements as to what's just arrived or where it's going. I checked the information screen and told her if she waited for the THIRD train to arrive at the platform she was currently nearest, it would be five stops (all trains, at least, have announcements) to get to her destination station. I offered to wait until it came in ten or so minutes' time to be sure she got on the right one, but she thanked me for taking the trouble and waited while I got on my train.
This actually makes the bilingual point pretty relevant - for better or for worse, English is a pretty global de facto second language. Between English and Japanese, she could manage to find someone to help her in pretty much any first world country. It would be tedious and confusing and seriously risky for her, but she might feel and ask around for an information counter and go from there. I could be mistaken as to how common Japanese is outside of Japan, of course, but I think she could make do in the countries adjacent.

Of course, it's unlikely that she wouldn't take any sort of precaution against winding up alone in an unfamiliar situation. I guess with this hypothetical situation, we're assuming that Synthus brought her into a public area, got fed up with her being blind, and just ditched her there, right?
metalangel wrote: That, however, is different. You'd know what you'd be getting into with Lilly and you'd accept that as part of your relationship and love for her.
This.

Leading a visually impaired person is more complicated than KS would have you believe. It's not deceptive, but it kind of glosses over some things for the sake of keeping the story going. I've had to do this a few times at my job and I've bungled it at least a little bit in every instance. My city provides special buses for people with disabilities, so these people were often grocery shopping on a strict timetable in a crowded store. Often just have their shopping list memorized because checking their shopping cart for what they have already purchased is too slow a task.

Setting the pace for moving through the store, warning incoming shoppers without making the person I'm leading self-conscious, making allowances for their guide dogs and oh lord, keeping the little kids away. Little kids want to mess with the dogs every damn time. But yeah, walking is just complicated, then there's providing relevant information when I didn't know exactly what they want, there's going through the store according to their memorized list, even if the route is really inefficient. I've found that interrupting them and saying "Oh, we're passing by the bakery, you said you wanted to get some bread?" while they're heading to the cheese can be enough to throw them off their game.

Then we get to the problems they didn't foresee. A blind man operates a grass trimmer? Really? And he doesn't know if it's a 2-stroke engine or a 4-stroke? He has to call his also-blind wife and they try to figure it out while I'm looking at the thirty-odd bottles of oil that I already took a number of wrong turns to find and the bus might be stopping by soon...

I am 100% positive that these are wonderful and pleasant people who are competent at the professions that they have found. Unfortunately, I am not an exceptionally gifted communicator and leading a stranger around like this is stressful. I have enormous respect for anyone who learns to do this well for the sake of someone they love.
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

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Megumeru
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Megumeru » Thu May 17, 2012 5:33 pm

metalangel wrote: That, however, is different. You'd know what you'd be getting into with Lilly and you'd accept that as part of your relationship and love for her.
It's the same how we know what we'll be getting into with Shizune and we'd accept that as part of our relationship and love her.loveissubjectiveandopentodiscussionforallsidesbeithippiesmilitaristsorsheppardhimself


although speaking of English-speaking Japanese, I know a handful of them in college, university, and some from my study to Japan.
Their English aren't bad, but it's comparable to an American learning to speak any given Asian language. I had the most laugh when one of my friend from college translates 'ushi' (cow) as 'beef'.
Image
They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

Synthus
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Synthus » Thu May 17, 2012 7:46 pm

WorldlyWiseman wrote: This actually makes the bilingual point pretty relevant - for better or for worse, English is a pretty global de facto second language. Between English and Japanese, she could manage to find someone to help her in pretty much any first world country.
Point, but let's assume we're still in Japan because the place has far more developed infrastructure than most first world nations. I don't know exactly how disabled-friendly they are, but from what I've heard they have a ways to go. Things like female-only train carriages are great, but they have a lot to improve on in terms of accessibility.
WorldlyWiseman wrote: Of course, it's unlikely that she wouldn't take any sort of precaution against winding up alone in an unfamiliar situation. I guess with this hypothetical situation, we're assuming that Synthus brought her into a public area, got fed up with her being blind, and just ditched her there, right?
Well no, because Lilly ain't my waifu in the first place, and if she was a friend the frequency of interaction in this manner is bound to be a lot lower. You lot seem to be assuming that I'm some callous twat who'd bonk Lilly while refusing to lead her around.

My main point with this (from the perspective of a non-waifufag) is that she's not exactly capable of independent operation in unfamiliar environments without a heck of a lot of trouble. Yes, it's a goddamn responsibility, and if I was in a relationship with her that'd be part of the price I'd have to pay, but I can also see that getting annoying quite quickly. A loving relationship with someone doesn't necessitate being attached at the hip, and essentially being forced to do (for perfectly legitimate reasons, too!) so would rankle.

In contrast, with some of the other girls their disabilities almost seem like personal idiosyncrasies.

Katsumi
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Katsumi » Thu May 17, 2012 8:28 pm

I have to go with Team Lilly. I really enjoyed her story more, but i'm a sucker for romantic story lines :) I can relate to Shizune.. but she was too cold!!
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Oddball
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Oddball » Thu May 17, 2012 8:31 pm

Synthus, I stepped out of this conversation myself, so I'm not going to argue for or against anything anymore here, but frankly, I really think you need to step away yourself. You're last few posts have come across as incredibly hostile and confrontational.
Not Dead Yet

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WorldlyWiseman
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Thu May 17, 2012 9:03 pm

Synthus wrote:
WorldlyWiseman wrote: Of course, it's unlikely that she wouldn't take any sort of precaution against winding up alone in an unfamiliar situation. I guess with this hypothetical situation, we're assuming that Synthus brought her into a public area, got fed up with her being blind, and just ditched her there, right?
Well no, because Lilly ain't my waifu in the first place, and if she was a friend the frequency of interaction in this manner is bound to be a lot lower. You lot seem to be assuming that I'm some callous twat who'd bonk Lilly while refusing to lead her around.

My main point with this (from the perspective of a non-waifufag) is that she's not exactly capable of independent operation in unfamiliar environments without a heck of a lot of trouble. Yes, it's a goddamn responsibility, and if I was in a relationship with her that'd be part of the price I'd have to pay, but I can also see that getting annoying quite quickly. A loving relationship with someone doesn't necessitate being attached at the hip, and essentially being forced to do (for perfectly legitimate reasons, too!) so would rankle.
It's also pretty unlikely that Lilly would form many strong bonds with people who aren't willing to help her out when she needs it. She's not your waifu, of course, and she's likely not even your friend because she would have figured out pretty quickly that her leaning on you would have been uncomfortable for both of you.

My joking about you aside, let's say that she's in a shopping mall (open spaces, terrible acoustics), and her shopping buddy has to go take care of something elsewhere and leaves her on a bench near a fountain. Then, she realizes that she suddenly has to go to the ladies' room and can't possibly hold it (but that tea was so tasty argh!). I would see her asking out loud to find where her shopping buddy is, and failing to find them, might try to listen around for anyone else nearby, probably heading towards nearby conversations. From there, it's only more of an imposition on others in the sense that the directions she would ask for would have to be much more specific, and there's a risk of mixing up the mens' and ladies' rooms if there isn't braille on the signs.

Hardly an infant.
Synthus wrote: In contrast, with some of the other girls their disabilities almost seem like personal idiosyncrasies.
Well, except from Shizune and (maybe kinda) Rin, the other girls don't really encounter anything specific to their disabilities during the game. It's understandable why it would get glossed over. There doesn't need to be a scene where Emi has to worry about wear and tear and uneven terrain or where her mother stresses over the financial costs of prosthetics. Hanako never has any immune system stress complications from having had so much of her body burned (it may not actually be a thing now if she was burned so long ago, but having a wound that big had to have been troublesome for keeping out infections at some point).

We've already gone into depth about Shizune's communication ability and complications thereof, and Rin's issues mainly have to do with giving and receiving hugs, and carrying things.
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

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Mysterious Stranger
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Thu May 17, 2012 9:15 pm

Megumeru wrote:although speaking of English-speaking Japanese, I know a handful of them in college, university, and some from my study to Japan.
Their English aren't bad, but it's comparable to an American learning to speak any given Asian language. I had the most laugh when one of my friend from college translates 'ushi' (cow) as 'beef'.
I'm so sorry, but I just can't resist pointing out that the phrase "I had the most laugh" is borderline Engrish in and of itself.
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

Synthus
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Synthus » Thu May 17, 2012 10:32 pm

Oddball wrote:Synthus, I stepped out of this conversation myself, so I'm not going to argue for or against anything anymore here, but frankly, I really think you need to step away yourself. You're last few posts have come across as incredibly hostile and confrontational.
I'm sorry, the sheer amount of passive aggressive horseshit in here was making me gag. In future I will endeavour to keep my hostility concealed under a thin veneer of civility.

Also, I am being hostile and confrontational for the most part. Sheesh. I'm channelling Shizune to attack Team Lilly, appropriate, ainnit?

In all seriousness, lighten the fuck up. We're all adults here. Speaking honestly isn't going to ruin anyone's self-esteem, and it's far less exhausting than working in jibes in every other line.
WorldlyWiseman wrote: It's also pretty unlikely that Lilly would form many strong bonds with people who aren't willing to help her out when she needs it. She's not your waifu, of course, and she's likely not even your friend because she would have figured out pretty quickly that her leaning on you would have been uncomfortable for both of you.
That'd depend, really. If we're normally interacting in Yamaku i.e. an environment she can navigate with ease because of long familiarity, I don't see that being much of an issue.
WorldlyWiseman wrote: My joking about you aside, let's say that she's in a shopping mall (open spaces, terrible acoustics), and her shopping buddy has to go take care of something elsewhere and leaves her on a bench near a fountain. Then, she realizes that she suddenly has to go to the ladies' room and can't possibly hold it (but that tea was so tasty argh!). I would see her asking out loud to find where her shopping buddy is, and failing to find them, might try to listen around for anyone else nearby, probably heading towards nearby conversations. From there, it's only more of an imposition on others in the sense that the directions she would ask for would have to be much more specific, and there's a risk of mixing up the mens' and ladies' rooms if there isn't braille on the signs.

Hardly an infant.
Hyperbole, man, do you recognize it?!

What I was mainly getting at was her disability is much more of an impediment for independent function than any other represented in the game. Surely you agree with that, at least.
WorldlyWiseman wrote: Well, except from Shizune and (maybe kinda) Rin, the other girls don't really encounter anything specific to their disabilities during the game. It's understandable why it would get glossed over. There doesn't need to be a scene where Emi has to worry about wear and tear and uneven terrain or where her mother stresses over the financial costs of prosthetics. Hanako never has any immune system stress complications from having had so much of her body burned (it may not actually be a thing now if she was burned so long ago, but having a wound that big had to have been troublesome for keeping out infections at some point).

We've already gone into depth about Shizune's communication ability and complications thereof, and Rin's issues mainly have to do with giving and receiving hugs, and carrying things.
Emi's running blades are likely bloody expensive and hard to justify to the beancounting suit that they usually put in charge, but they'll also last quite a while and are likely going to be more efficient (in terms of mileage/$) than running shoes. As far as I know, Japan subsidises basic prosthetic limbs heavily, so her regular legs are far less of a financial burden than you might think.

That's going to be pretty far in her past, no? Also, AFAIK scarring of that magnitude's pretty unlikely in the first place with modern treatment methods. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1129913-treatment Given that severe disfigurement is considered to be a disability in Japan, you could likely get these treatments at token cost, especially as a ward of the state.

My take on it is that Shizune's communication ability isn't necessarily lacking, it's just different enough that it represents a paradigm shift for the non-deaf.

Rin could just carry a backpack. She might get tense shoulders after a while from having to shrug a lot to keep the straps on, but it's eminently doable.

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WorldlyWiseman
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by WorldlyWiseman » Fri May 18, 2012 12:20 am

Synthus wrote:
Oddball wrote:Synthus, I stepped out of this conversation myself, so I'm not going to argue for or against anything anymore here, but frankly, I really think you need to step away yourself. You're last few posts have come across as incredibly hostile and confrontational.
I'm sorry, the sheer amount of passive aggressive horseshit in here was making me gag. In future I will endeavour to keep my hostility concealed under a thin veneer of civility.

Also, I am being hostile and confrontational for the most part. Sheesh. I'm channelling Shizune to attack Team Lilly, appropriate, ainnit?

In all seriousness, lighten the fuck up. We're all adults here. Speaking honestly isn't going to ruin anyone's self-esteem, and it's far less exhausting than working in jibes in every other line.
The whole 'team' bit seems to have broken down entirely. Now, whoever has the conch, speaks. You should have jumped in back when the thread was all about rape.
Synthus wrote:
That'd depend, really. If we're normally interacting in Yamaku i.e. an environment she can navigate with ease because of long familiarity, I don't see that being much of an issue.
The term 'acquaintance' comes to mind.
Synthus wrote:
Hyperbole, man, do you recognize it?!

What I was mainly getting at was her disability is much more of an impediment for independent function than any other represented in the game. Surely you agree with that, at least.
You are quite the prickly little hedgehog!

I think most people can agree on the basic idea, we just seem to disagree on orders of magnitude. As in, we're all saying its twice as as difficult, and you're saying sixteen times as difficult (or at least it comes off that way, might be the 'bring it sucka!' attitude you're using). Don't ask for my exact numbers, as they are imaginary.

Lilly has had to live with it her whole life, she's smart enough to work around it.
Synthus wrote: Emi's running blades are likely bloody expensive and hard to justify to the beancounting suit that they usually put in charge, but they'll also last quite a while and are likely going to be more efficient (in terms of mileage/$) than running shoes. As far as I know, Japan subsidises basic prosthetic limbs heavily, so her regular legs are far less of a financial burden than you might think.

That's going to be pretty far in her past, no? Also, AFAIK scarring of that magnitude's pretty unlikely in the first place with modern treatment methods. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1129913-treatment Given that severe disfigurement is considered to be a disability in Japan, you could likely get these treatments at token cost, especially as a ward of the state.

My take on it is that Shizune's communication ability isn't necessarily lacking, it's just different enough that it represents a paradigm shift for the non-deaf.

Rin could just carry a backpack. She might get tense shoulders after a while from having to shrug a lot to keep the straps on, but it's eminently doable.
You got me here. The Emi example was based on watching YouTube (lots of vids of people showing how they deal with different challenges with their limbs), but the Hanako example was a bit of a stretch. My point is that the game glosses over these more technical parts of their disabilities because it's supposed to be a love story, not a documentary, and that these kinds of challenges make these things more than idiosyncrasies. But yeah, technicalities.
Doraleous wrote:Sometimes, when nobody is home, I like to lie under my bed and pretend I'm a strawberry.
How could we have not simply let the thread end with this non-sequitor?! This would have made it the perfect thread.
Hanako's favorite joke is The Aristocrats, but she never tells it because Lilly finds it really offensive. Instead, she practices her delivery in front of a mirror when she's alone. It's the only time she never stammers.

Synthus
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Synthus » Fri May 18, 2012 1:03 am

WorldlyWiseman wrote:
You are quite the prickly little hedgehog!
Well shit, did I need to go :D :) :wink: :lol: :P :mrgreen: ? I figured the '?!' would be enough!

The 'rape' bit was about where it started to go downhill. That word is way too fucking loaded for use in a waifu war.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Megumeru wrote:although speaking of English-speaking Japanese, I know a handful of them in college, university, and some from my study to Japan.
Their English aren't bad, but it's comparable to an American learning to speak any given Asian language. I had the most laugh when one of my friend from college translates 'ushi' (cow) as 'beef'.
I'm so sorry, but I just can't resist pointing out that the phrase "I had the most laugh" is borderline Engrish in and of itself.
Good lord, man, he accidentally an 's'. 'I had the most laughs...' works perfectly.

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Megumeru
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Re: Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

Post by Megumeru » Fri May 18, 2012 3:20 am

Mysterious Stranger wrote: I'm so sorry, but I just can't resist pointing out that the phrase "I had the most laugh" is borderline Engrish in and of itself.
English is my secondary language after all, so I get that once in awhile :lol:

But it's just missing an 's' that's a typo :p
WorldyWiseman wrote:The whole 'team' bit seems to have broken down entirely. Now, whoever has the conch, speaks. You should have jumped in back when the thread was all about rape.
Is that when I was 'swinging the whiskey bottle wildly', Rydiafan was under the table, etc. about 10 posts back?

That was pretty amusing--I still think it's pretty amusing.
Image
They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

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