Remove Adult Content?

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The O.H.L.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by The O.H.L. » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:42 am

Megumeru wrote:why does the board title 'Remove adult content' made me think of this

...someone should make that featuring the KS girls playing instruments :lol:
I had forgotten about this until know. Thanks for reminding me, I'm listening to it for enjoyment right now.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by rydiafan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:07 am

It's funny as adults we are talking about breast as a bad thing , does that mean we should bitch about the news talking about breast feeding or breast exams

it really is a double standard in video games / VNs .... in GTA if you beat a group of hookers with a baseball bat , burn them with a flamethrower or run over them with a car socity in general is ok with that .... show a nipple its crossing some kind of moral line we can't get back from

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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Roy-Kr » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:13 am

rydiafan wrote:it really is a double standard in video games / VNs .... in GTA if you beat a group of hookers with a baseball bat , burn them with a flamethrower or run over them with a car socity in general is ok with that .... show a nipple its crossing some kind of moral line we can't get back from
Meh, it's mostly just you crazy americans who think like that.
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The O.H.L.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by The O.H.L. » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:20 am

Roy-Kr wrote:
rydiafan wrote:it really is a double standard in video games / VNs .... in GTA if you beat a group of hookers with a baseball bat , burn them with a flamethrower or run over them with a car socity in general is ok with that .... show a nipple its crossing some kind of moral line we can't get back from
Meh, it's mostly just you crazy americans who think like that.
And Australia. And New Zealand. And other western societies like that.
Australia doesn't even have a R18 rating.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Paddy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:34 am

Suriko wrote:
Paddy wrote:
Mirage_GSM wrote:Nudity is not adult content.
It is in America.
And that matters to an international project how?
Only in that I had assumed that there would be more Americans involved in the production of this game, considering it is chiefly an English-language production, who might possibly know information like this that would prevent confusion among the American audience. :|

There wasn't an American soul who questioned the disable content check during pre-release??? :S
I'm not trying to make this an "This is an American game" issue or anything like that.
I'm just saying America tends to be a conservative country. Americans being one of the largest populations of the internet, I am sincerely ignorant and confused as to how American or other English-speaking peoples' attitudes towards full-frontal nudity could slip through the cracks. :(
Last edited by Paddy on Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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rydiafan
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by rydiafan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:40 am

Roy-Kr wrote: Meh, it's mostly just you crazy americans who think like that.
I'm canadian

To be fair it's everything that seems to think nudity is immoral ( video games , VN's , hollywood ,the news )
Nudity doesn't have to be mixed in with sex it can be a beautiful thing

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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Aura » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:54 am

Paddy wrote:
Suriko wrote: And that matters to an international project how?
Only in that I had assumed that there would be more Americans involved in the production of this game, considering it is chiefly an English-language production, who might possibly know information like this that would prevent confusion among the American audience. :|

There wasn't an American soul who questioned the disable content check during pre-release??? :S
I'm not trying to make this an "This is an American game" issue or anything like that.
I'm just saying America tends to be a conservative country. Americans being one of the largest populations of the internet, I am sincerely ignorant and confused as to how American or other English-speaking peoples' attitudes towards full-frontal nudity could slip through the cracks. :(
We are well aware that some Americans think tits are more offensive than brutal murder. Suriko's point was that we don't give a damn about American (or any other country's, culture's or group's) standards. What do you think would be sensitive content to our Saudi-Arabian readers? The drinking in Lilly's story? Swearwords? We don't need to conform to any specific standards and can't conform to arbitrary standards, so we decided our own. The cut for "adult content" in KS is "sex", because that's how we define it, and that's all there is to it. If you or someone who might be looking over your shoulder can't handle that, don't play KS.
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The O.H.L.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by The O.H.L. » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:02 am

Aura wrote:
Paddy wrote:
Suriko wrote: And that matters to an international project how?
Only in that I had assumed that there would be more Americans involved in the production of this game, considering it is chiefly an English-language production, who might possibly know information like this that would prevent confusion among the American audience. :|

There wasn't an American soul who questioned the disable content check during pre-release??? :S
I'm not trying to make this an "This is an American game" issue or anything like that.
I'm just saying America tends to be a conservative country. Americans being one of the largest populations of the internet, I am sincerely ignorant and confused as to how American or other English-speaking peoples' attitudes towards full-frontal nudity could slip through the cracks. :(
We are well aware that some Americans think tits are more offensive than brutal murder. Suriko's point was that we don't give a damn about American (or any other country's, culture's or group's) standards. What do you think would be sensitive content to our Saudi-Arabian readers? The drinking in Lilly's story? Swearwords? We don't need to conform to any specific standards and can't conform to arbitrary standards, so we decided our own. The cut for "adult content" in KS is "sex", because that's how we define it, and that's all there is to it. If you or someone who might be looking over your shoulder can't handle that, don't play KS.
Fair enough. I just wasn't expecting boobs all of a sudden. I was expecting the adult content to conform to the regular level of adultyness was all.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Guest Poster » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:25 am

Only in that I had assumed that there would be more Americans involved in the production of this game, considering it is chiefly an English-language production, who might possibly know information like this that would prevent confusion among the American audience.

There wasn't an American soul who questioned the disable content check during pre-release??? :S
I'm not trying to make this an "This is an American game" issue or anything like that.
Just because someone is american doesn't automatically mean they have prudish views on sexuality. In fact, the majority of americans in the community where KS had its roots probably don't.

I don't think KS ever pretended to be anything other than a game that had sex scenes in it. I think the "disable adult content" was mostly there as a bone to throw to the no-sexual-content crowd, but not something that the devs put a large amount of time into, since the game IS dealing with teenagers having sexual relationships. Frontal nudity is something you get to see in sex ed class too and someone who's too young to have had sex education is probably too young to fully appreciate many of the themes that are brought up throughout KS.

Overall, as far as sexuality is concerned, KS portrays it realistically and maturely. I wouldn't use it as a sex ed lesson for someone of course, but if someone has learned about sex and sexuality, there's nothing in there that's gonna shock. Unlike most other VNs where sexual content is usually treated as simple porn.
I'm just saying America tends to be a conservative country. Americans being one of the largest populations of the internet, I am sincerely ignorant and confused as to how American attitudes on full-frontal nudity could slip through the cracks
Maybe the project was never meant to cater specifically to one particular population.

Oh, and America being a conservative and prude country is kinda a stereotype that's not completely accurate. The country is too rife with contradictions for that.

- The US gets it knickers in a twist over a wardrobe malfunction, yet has the largest porn industry in the world.
- The country seems to have heated discussion over contraception, yet the vast majority of women still use it.
- The US seems to be the only western country where abstinence-only sex education is given credibility, yet teenage pregnancy and abortions are both above the western average.

It's not so much the fact americans are less open about sex than other western countries, it's just the prudish voices are both louder and more influental than in other western societies. :)

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Daitengu
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Daitengu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:25 am

Blaze wrote:I've been reading this VN for a while and really enjoying that. I read about it on Hardcore Gaming 101 and thought the art and music and subject matter is awesome. I was reading Emi's route with my sister and had the "no adult content" box checked. We're more than old enough to be talking about and reading about this sort of thing, but it was really a shock when we got a full frontal nude after the "aquarium" scene. That really is adult content. I turned the game off right away. I'd rather not have seen it, but I feel worse about my sister.

I'm certainly not angry at the creators for including nudity in this game, but it would be nice if a little disclaimer was added to that check box, or if it actually did skip all the adult content. I don't feel entitled to anything, of course. I just wish I knew beforehand.

Thanks for your time, and for putting so much love into this beautiful game. Even if I can't play the rest I'll definitely be listening to the soundtrack.
Isn't that a bit hypocritical? Do you wear a blind fold at a fine arts museum every time there's a nude statue?

You claim that you can talk about nudity and sex, but you're actions state otherwise. I think your problem is that you see all sex and nudity as obscene. There's three kinds of nudity and sex. Natural, artistic, and porn. I would only label porn as obscene. I don't know of anyone who's played KS who could honestly call it porn, much less actually fap to it. Much of western culture sees just about everything as obscene when it comes to sex and nudity. Which is a pretty terrible way to go about it. Europe tends to have a better grasp of that than the US at any rate.

Nudity wise, what's the big deal? Movies have plenty of it. If you don't know that, then you're obviously too young to really be playing an 18+ game anyway. There's plot reasons for all the scenes. Yes even the Emi-shed scene. If you can't see it, I think you need to think about it more, and with less bias.

I could actually go on and on about the subject of nudity and sex in western culture and religions, but I don't think this is the place lol.

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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Paddy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:33 am

And now all Hell's broken loose.
Aura wrote:
Paddy wrote:
Suriko wrote: And that matters to an international project how?
Only in that I had assumed that there would be more Americans involved in the production of this game, considering it is chiefly an English-language production, who might possibly know information like this that would prevent confusion among the American audience. :|

There wasn't an American soul who questioned the disable content check during pre-release??? :S
I'm not trying to make this an "This is an American game" issue or anything like that.
I'm just saying America tends to be a conservative country. Americans being one of the largest populations of the internet, I am sincerely ignorant and confused as to how American or other English-speaking peoples' attitudes towards full-frontal nudity could slip through the cracks. :(
We are well aware that some Americans think tits are more offensive than brutal murder. Suriko's point was that we don't give a damn about American (or any other country's, culture's or group's) standards. What do you think would be sensitive content to our Saudi-Arabian readers? The drinking in Lilly's story? Swearwords? We don't need to conform to any specific standards and can't conform to arbitrary standards, so we decided our own. The cut for "adult content" in KS is "sex", because that's how we define it, and that's all there is to it. If you or someone who might be looking over your shoulder can't handle that, don't play KS.
Then let the audience know that, will you? And your audience is primarily English-speaking countries where that definition is slightly stricter.

If "adult content" doesn't mean "what the the vast majority of the audience will define as adult content" or "what legally constitutes adult content/an AO rating" but "what the devteam believes is adult content", the devteam should make their definition known and not assume everyone else shares their definition. Because we don't.

I do not personally care about the references to sex and nudity because I can take it with a grain of salt. But when you're putting in an option that's intended to make the game less offensive to your English-speaking audience, you can't. It causes undue confusion and it's frankly rather rude to expect everyone to be as liberal and free with the body as you.

And if it's a joke, it's not a particularly good one.
Last edited by Paddy on Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Daitengu
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Daitengu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:37 am

Paddy wrote:Then let the audience know that, will you? And your audience is primarily English-speaking countries where that definition is slightly stricter.

If "adult content" doesn't mean "what the the vast majority of the audience will define as adult content" or "what legally constitutes adult content/an AO rating" but "what the devteam believes is adult content", the devteam should make their definition known and not assume everyone else shares their definition. Because we don't. And when you're putting in an option that's intended to make the game less offensive to your English-speaking audience, you can't.

Unless it's a joke. :|
English, the second most used language in the world... The one language that is a secondary language to most people of differing primary language. That opinion of yours doesn't help your case any. You know they have a broadcaster in England that use to report the daily news with her breasts showing?

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The O.H.L.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by The O.H.L. » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:10 am

I agree with both sides of the argument here. The devs had the right to put in what they please, and had no obligations to add the skip adult content checkbox. But they could have implemented it better, say, describe what their meaning of adult content was.

As the fact for the English speaking countries thing, when you have a lot of countries, you get a lot of cultures, and just because they share some of the same language and morals, doesn't mean they share all, e.g. America is mostly religious yet England isn't, Australians think New Zealanders fuck sheep yet New Zealanders think Australians fuck Kangaroos, America views nudity as something to be censored in most aspects, England can accept the human body for what it is (mostly). Everybody is different and therefore has different views, so not everybody will be happy.

I'm happy with the way KS turned out, even if that means I have to wait till the weekends when I'm alone to safely play/read it.
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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Daitengu » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:26 am

The O.H.L. wrote:I agree with both sides of the argument here. The devs had the right to put in what they please, and had no obligations to add the skip adult content checkbox. But they could have implemented it better, say, describe what their meaning of adult content was, because I think it was kind of obvious the minors would play with game (me).
The only reason there's warnings on anything in the commercial world is that they have to if they want to get paid. Since getting paid incurs legal responsibilities on a product to be safe. Since KS was free, 4LS didn't have to.

Freedom on the net means that sometimes you run across things that may be objectionable. 2girls1cup for example. Being free means you take the good and the bad.

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Re: Remove Adult Content?

Post by Aura » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:50 am

Paddy wrote:And now all Hell's broken loose.
Aura wrote: We are well aware that some Americans think tits are more offensive than brutal murder. Suriko's point was that we don't give a damn about American (or any other country's, culture's or group's) standards. What do you think would be sensitive content to our Saudi-Arabian readers? The drinking in Lilly's story? Swearwords? We don't need to conform to any specific standards and can't conform to arbitrary standards, so we decided our own. The cut for "adult content" in KS is "sex", because that's how we define it, and that's all there is to it. If you or someone who might be looking over your shoulder can't handle that, don't play KS.
Then let the audience know that, will you? And your audience is primarily English-speaking countries where that definition is slightly stricter.

If "adult content" doesn't mean "what the the vast majority of the audience will define as adult content" or "what legally constitutes adult content/an AO rating" but "what the devteam believes is adult content", the devteam should make their definition known and not assume everyone else shares their definition. Because we don't.


I do not personally care about the references to sex and nudity because I can take it with a grain of salt. But when you're putting in an option that's intended to make the game less offensive to your English-speaking audience, you can't.

Unless it's a joke. :|
You are making an awful lot of assumptions and you are being rather dumb about them. The point exactly was that we can't go by "what the vast majority of the audience will define as adult content". I don't know what the vast majority of the audience defines as adult content, and neither do you. You claim that you do, but you are looking at the issue from the narrow subjective perspective of yourself. And what about the people who are not in the "vast majority"? We have made a statement about the toggle being about sex scenes only (though it's not in big letters anywhere), and maybe the toggle text should've been "Disable sex scenes" for clarity, but what difference would that really have made? KS is a mature story, with or without sex scenes, anyone who downloads it gets a warning and should be aware of what they are getting into. Beyond that point we do not give a fuck about anyone's sensibilities. That might sound harsh, but seriously complaining about cartoon nudity in a CRIPPLE PORN GAME is ludicrous.
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<Suriko> I would do it if it wouldn't be so hard to explain to my parents

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