Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoilers]

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:07 pm

B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.
I think that's the wrong way to judge Hanako, but I won't dismiss it outright because I think it's partially true. Specifically:
B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!"
Yeah, that part might have SOME truth to it. Everything she says during the park scene indicates a very low self-esteem. It's part of what she became. "I'm useless" and "I'm horrible" ARE thoughts she has about herself.
thus destroying her already weak self-steem.
This part is actually inaccurate. It would damage her self-esteem, but not destroy it.

People often call Hanako "silently strong". I'm not sure if that's the word I'd use. Lilly is silently strong. Hanako...less so. The word I'd use for Hanako is "resilient". Strong is what you call a guy who can lift a horse or break down a door. Resilient is what you call a guy who just won't die no matter how abuse he takes. Hanako's been through a lot, but she's still alive. She practically lives close to the edge, but never falls over it. She's often depressed, but would never consider suicide. She's hurt by Hisao's white knighting, but can't get herself to tell him about it unless he threatens to push her over the edge as happened in her bad end at which point her survival instincts take over and she screams at him.

So Hanako's not extremely strong, or she'd have pulled herself out of her rut on her own years ago. But she is bloody resiliant or she would have killed herself years ago.
A) Hisao has sex with her. She feels herself a desirable woman, thus strenghtening her self-steem. They fall in love.
The sex was never intended to make him fall in love with her. It was intended to destroy the image of her being a fragile person who had to be protected. They were already close enough to go out, as long as Hisao would see her as an equal and not as a ward.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:37 pm

Guest Poster wrote:
I agree that Hanako was probably not, er, madly in love with Hisao. I could have worded that better.
That's not what I said, actually. Hanako was in love with Hisao, no doubt about that, and has been for quite a while. With her, it's difficult to figure out, but I wouldn't have been surprised if she developed a crush on him around the time she first thanked him for hanging out with her in Act 1.
bbbbbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbbbbbbbbb.....
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu23 ... v8s760.gif (large gif)
(Not at you. At the poor communication and comprehension on my part.)
I don't think she necessarily wanted a romantic relationship. She thought Hisao wanted one. There is a difference there.
But I think it safe to say she merely wanted a friendship. Not to be pitied, but to be loved as a person, even if she was not loved as a better half. I think... that would have been enough for her.
Hanako thought Hisao was looking for a girlfriend and she failed his aptitude test for being a burden to him. So she seduced him in an attempt to show him that she wasn't a child and that she was capable of...being with a man as much as any other girl.
This I can buy. Most certainly.
Make no mistake, Hanako wanted more than just a friendship with Hisao. Just before kissing him on the lips, Hanako states she's wanted to do this for a very long time. She wouldn't have said that if she didn't desire a romantic relationship with him. You don't kiss mere friends on the lips.
Don't European friends kiss each other? ;)

But nitpicking aside, yes.. you are correct. She did want a BF/GF with Hisao. You can tell it's not because she kissed him, but because she'd been wanting to do it for so long. You don't long to kiss friends. You are right.

But from her words in the park, though, I think simply being Hisao's friend would have been acceptable (if not ideal, and maybe if it had not escalated to sex). So long as the relationship was a genuine person-to-person relationship, and not like a relationship between a man and a pet, or a man and a toy. She'd never felt she'd had been treated like a human being after the fire.
The trading thing is indeed very much how Hanako sees human relationships. It's a recurring dynamic in the developing bond between her and Hisao. After Hanako got scarred by the fire, the children she thought were here friends became her bullies. Because of this, Hanako finds it nearly impossible to believe people would treasure her merely for "being her". So instead, she judges her perceived value to people by the amount of "favors" she can return in kind. It allows her to measure her value by a non-abstract measuring stick.

This is the main reason why Hanako found her place relatively quickly in the newspaper club in Lilly's route...her classmates gave her stuff to do that she was good at and because she got to make herself useful, her self-esteem improved.

This is also the reason why she secretly felt insecure about her relationship with Lilly. Hanako loved Lilly, no doubt about that, but the relationship was unbalanced and Hanako knew this. Hanako relied on Lilly a lot as an emotional crutch. But Lilly wouldn't rely on Hanako for emotional support whenever she was troubled. (we learn in Lilly's route that Lilly doesn't like to share her burdens with others) This is a shame because if she had, their friendship would have been a lot deeper and Hanako would have opened up to Lilly more.
Very insightful.

Mind you, I am not sure whether Lilly or Hanako's route is better for Hanako, simply because I do not know enough about Hanako's route in the end. I am not saying Lilly's route was better for her. It may be quite the opposite, and this discussion has been making me think more and more it is the better route.
However, and I can't stress that enough, the sex was NOT part of one of Hanako's typical "trading" actions. She didn't sleep with him in return for love. She slept with him in return for an opportunity to win his love.
I'm afraid I don't understand. It's certainly a bold move on her part, and definitely an attempt to reach out to Hisao to try to be his girlfriend. But I don't see any less how it was an attempt to "trade" on her part. In fact, it seems like what a lot of girls do today: they have sex with their boyfriends hoping they will continue to love them.
Without the threat of their friendship ending, I doubt Hanako would have been able to admit her lack of trust in Hisao and Lilly, nor do I think Hisao would have admitted to Hanako he indeed used to see her as a fragile child who had to be protected.
A friendship can end just as quickly before bedding as after. After all, why would Hanako want to do this? Hisao didn't know. He had every right to ask why. Just as much as having sex is not something friends do, indicating you WANT to have sex is not something friends do, either.
But by accepting her attempt to seduce him, it became a shared slip-up instead of just an error in Hanako's judgement. That sense of equality was important. It wasn't just Hanako who needed to spit things out, the same was true for Hisao. Both of them sharing responsibility for what happened was an important factor in their mutual venting session.
Image"Seduced" is an interesting word. You make her sound like a succubus. (Not that I'm implying anything.) :roll:

They were already mutually responsible for something - for their entire relationship. And both had flubbed in properly maintaining it. Hisao admitted he was "sneaking behind her back" - presumably he meant asking Lilly for help.

Even then, all they needed was some kind of event to force one or the other of them ask the big question: "What is our relationship to each other?"
Wrote an ode
I realize this is just an example, but we're talking about a girl here who hardly ever speaks in more than short single sentences.
Image
or bought him something that expressed just how she felt about him. And he could have done those same things, too
It's actually pretty difficult to get out of the friend zone by simply buying gifts. Even "I love you" can be interpreted in many different ways and not the specific way that Hanako desired.
Flowers. Heart-shaped boxes of chocolate. Those cheesy cards they sell in stores (there are definitely romantic ones, or should be, anyway). Flavoured lubricant.[/flippancy] These are things that can be interpreted many different ways???
That was unfortunately before she had that breakdown in class at which point he decided that a romantic interest was not what she needed right now.
He still wanted it, though. But that's a good point. It did kind of shift his view of her a bit, didn't it?
I understand as much, but just about every one of those ways involved actually opening up which neither was really prepared to do until the situation had them at gunpoint. Which was the main problem. If "simply telling them so" was really that easy, then yes, the sex would have been unnecessary.
So letting a guy put his penis into you - and potentially get you pregnant or give you STDS (condoms do not always prevent either of those things, and indeed condoms are not even effective against some of them) - is easier than talking to a guy, or some of the things I mentioned?

What a astonishing world you must live in.

I simply think Hanako was ignorant of any other way than sex. That, or she thought sex would be the most/only effective way. (Maybe she reads/watches more porn/romantic novels than we know. ;) That would certainly be understandable.)
Ultimately, Hanako's drastic action addressed one directly and by creating a crisis in their friendship, forced the addressing of the second one.
Not denying this. I'm simply denying sex had to be the only way or the easiest way. It certainly was a convenient way to make a sex scene part of the plot. But it needed not be so.

In fact, if the confession and the sex scene had swapped places in the storyline, I think there would have been much less angst and a much brighter future for them both - though I suppose this is conjecture, and it really could have gone either way in either case.

Indeed, Hisao and Hanako's relationship need not have improved at all after the sex scene.
But none of it would have been hitting the mark. Hanako's and Hisao's finally coming out and bearing all their emotions to each other? THAT was hitting the mark.
Ultimately, this is what solved things for real. Or rather, pointed them both in the right direction to start the process of getting to know each other for real.
Ok, good. This we can agree on. :)
The pleasure was all mine. I have a tendency to quote-pick posts, which sometimes comes across as a bit argumentative, but don't let that bother you. We actually agree on a lot, we're not going to agree on everything, but I can see we can respectfully disagree on the points of view we don't share.
Fine by me. I like argumentative. I don't like people who simply yield and say "Hey, sure, whatever you say" without really meaning it.

Then again, that's kind of what this forum is for, isn't it? Dialogue.

I can agree that something needed to be a catalyst - or at least would have made it easier and the story less drawn out.
I just don't agree that that thing necessarily had to be sex, that's all.

And in fact not only because I hope for there to be a more God-approved method to resolve their feelings. Another reason I argue my point is because we expect to see intercourse in this game. It's just a normal part of the course of things in the world the devs wrote (perhaps even in the world we see around us). It would take us aback (maybe disappoint some) if they did not see some kind of sex scene relevant to the plot. But it need not be so. These stories would be just as deep without them. (Yes, I realise there's a checkbox just for that.)

I've been meaning to ask BTW: are you Oddball in disguise?

EDIT: Oh, dawnstorm's post made me think of another thing. Whatever the case, one of them would have had to take the initiative. Whether it was Hisao who invited Hanako to have sex/talk/make out/take a gift/go steady, or Hanako who would invite Hisao to, one of them - either one of them - would have had to.

2ND EDIT: And I'm not advocating white-knighting. If I were to love Hanako, it would be regardless of her shortcomings, not because of them. Her scars would have no bearing on her being a precious person. I would protect any girl I did not want to screw things up with, scarred or scarless, submissive or aggressive, from premarital sex.

Although, looking at the stuff we've discussed, I can understand why Hisao (not me) not doing this would be taken the wrong way.
Last edited by Paddy on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Dawnstorm » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:50 pm

I'm generally very much with Guest Poster on this issue, but there are some subtle differences, and I'm not sure whether it's a matter of disagreement or different accents. I'm going to go off from a sample quote:
Guest Poster wrote:But by accepting her attempt to seduce him, it became a shared slip-up instead of just an error in Hanako's judgement. That sense of equality was important. It wasn't just Hanako who needed to spit things out, the same was true for Hisao. Both of them sharing responsibility for what happened was an important factor in their mutual venting session.
I very much agree with this, except that it treats the entire scene as a "slip-up". There is no single slip-up. Rather it's a clash of insecurities that rests on more than one minor misunderstandings, that combine to a complex situation.

1. Hanako strips before Hisao, showing him "all of her". (Note the choice of words: this is a part of her, and she's normally hiding it.) This is embarrassing for her, so she asks Hisao not to say anything. This makes sense: Hanako wants intimacy, so she pays forward - trust. Hisao at first focuses on the scars (he's never seen them in their entirety; he's reflecting that they don't shock him as much as he'd expected they would, and arousal creeps in, because he's - indeed - seeing "all" of her.

2. So far, they're on one page. But a prolonged silence makes Hisao uncomfortable. He's not sure exaclty how to take the situation. He has the choice of (a) treating her like a ward (suppress the arousal), or (b) treating her as a lover (which comes a bit sudden). Because he's been caught by surprise, the situation presents itself as a clear dichotomy to him. He can't seek cues from Hanako, who has asked him not to say anything. Also, she's facing away from him, probably to help her overcome her nervousness. It's clear that it's Hisao's turn, and he has to do something before long, or the situation becomes awkward.

3. Hisao chooses the lover-route. This is the correct decision; had he gone the ward route, he'd have pushed her away, then and there. But because of his confusion, sex is the only thing that clearly differentiates the ward-route from the lover-route. So, partly to define the situation for himself, he focusses on sex. He initiates the act wordlessly, walking towards Hanako's bed; she follows. (This is something I missed the first time round; the first-person perspective of the image made it seem more one-sided on Hisao's part, but the text makes it clear that there is some non-verbal communication going on, rather than an active Hisao/passive Hanako game.)

4. They have sex, but Hisao notices Hanako's not as into it as he'd hoped. He starts worrying that he's made the wrong decision, that Hanako doesn't want this. Basically, neither of them are ready for the act. Hisao's own over-emphasis of the act itself might have contributed to Hanako's discomfort, too. The act solves nothing, primarily because of the focus on the penetration game. There is not enough of the intimacy Hanako had hoped for (because of both their insecurities and confusion).

5. After the act, Hisao's heart acts up, but calms down. Hanako picks up on this, looks worried, and then has this confused, reliefed smile (one the most beutiful pictures in the game for me, btw). This is a distraction. At that point, Hanako has hope that things have gone well. Hisao stays the night, and she's experienced his vulnerability (and he doesn't draw away during it). Note that the heart-irregularity remains uncommented on by either of them. They both just accept that it happened. And this isn't uncomfortable for Hanako.

6. Hisao awakes and Hanako is gone. It's then that the insecurities colour his perception of the scene. He starts worrying that she's maybe ashamed; he's worried that he's just pushed his arousal on her. It's awkward, being alone in Hanako's room.

7. Hanako returns with breakfast. She's taking care of Hisao, taking initiative. But when she returns she immediately notices that something's off, and her own insecurities act up again. They both leave in silence.

It's not a simple slip up. Imagine Hisao had only awoken when Hanako had already prepared breakfast. Imagine Hisao waking up to a cheerful good-morning Hanako and the smell of a fresh breakfast. Despite the awkward sex, that would have been an entirely different situation. They might have balanced out the protector/ward roles, but potentially at the cost of Hanako's sexuality (depends on the pattern they fall in). Note that even in the good ending, Hisao doesn't address his arousal. In the end, he's going the lover route, but overemphasising the "couple" aspect (neglecting sex). There's an ambiguity to "you can't look at me like that", that is significant, because the scars are a physical blemish.

I know from experience that off-putting features normalise rather quickly: you don't stop seeing the scars, but they stop being off-putting. Hisao has experienced this, and reflected on it. But even in the good ending he never talks about this to Hanako. When she says things like "I know I'm not pretty" or "you can't look at me like that," he doesn't outright contracdict her. (Compare this to Hanako's straightforward "No, I wasn't rejecting you!...") Well, talk is cheap. There's no guarantee that he could be convincing (even though it's the turth). Eventually, Hisao will have to make her see that the scars are no obstacle to physical attraction. It's important, as it goes to the root of her problem:

People do recoil, especially if they get caught off guard by the scars. But people also get used to them pretty quickly, when they spend time with her. This is not something, though, that is easily accessible. At the end of the arc, Hanako probably still thinks that Hisao tolerates her scars. But that's not it; they just cease to matter. They become part of the person - to the extent that - even though they are not in themselves beautiful - you may even start to love them, too. It's odd and hard to understand, if you haven't experienced that. So I'm not sure how Hisao can get that across to Hanako. Waiting, and not saying anything for now, may well be the right instinct. But if Hanako doesn't start seeing that, her scar-insecurity is probably going to interfere with her ability to enjoy sex. Conversly, Hanako starting to enjoy sex could lead to a reduction in general insecurity. She'll always experience stranger-recoil, but its flavour might yet change from dignity-threat to mere nuisance.

So basically I don't think they made any obviously bad decisions. Even Hanako's sex-gambit is probably just an attempt at increased intimacy that overshoots the mark. They both suffer from too-much-too-soon syndrome because of their own insecurities, and thus they have lots of little slip ups that add up. What saves them is that they face their fears of losing each other. And they wouldn't have had to face those fears, if these slip-ups hadn't happened.

Sorry for that long post, especially since I'm probably saying the same thing as Guest Poster, anyway. But I felt the need to work through that.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Oddball » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:18 pm

Or scenario C: Hisao confesses that Hanako is beautiful no matter what she or anyone else thinks and then he (at least attempts to) share a passionate kiss. Things can escalate from there.
Remember the poolhall scene? They really seemed to b connecting and opening up there. Then Hisao mentions that he'll always be there to protect her and it just ruins everything. Just saying he cares for her is only going to lead to that exact same scenario again. He's going to say what he thinks she needs to hear without understanding that she needs the exact opposite.
Megumeru wrote:
fabio.salvador wrote:B) Hisao declines to have sex with her. No matter what he says to her, what excuses he gives, she´s gonna think "oh shit, I showed him my scarred body and he ran away, I must be really horrible!", thus destroying her already weak self-steem.
If you think Hanako is that weak, then you might have managed to avoid stepping on 'that' landmine in her route called the 'bad ending'.
Hisao DID have sex with her and she still came to the conclusion that he wasn't able to see her that way. She has VERY low self esteem.
She's just a little timid and--considering both her and Lilly's route--I can confidently say that she already had feelings for Hisao the moment he starts spending his time with her and Lilly (it's just that at Lilly's route she backs off instead of pursuing any further and develop a very-damaging love triangle--now that I think about it, someone should write that 'what if' scenario).
One thing I didn't notice until I recently replayed Lilly's route. During the tea party where Akira shows up, once Lilly and Hisao start talking romatically, Hanako begins to figit a little and seems uncomfortable. Also in that scene where Akira calls Hisao a pervert for looking at Hanako and Lilly in their pajamas, Hanako says she doesn't mind as long as it's Hisao. ... and of course Lilly and Hisao are both to into each other to really notice. In a way, it's very close to what Hanako was talking about being afraid of in her route about being afraid Hisao would leave when he grew tired of her.
However, and I can't stress that enough, the sex was NOT part of one of Hanako's typical "trading" actions. She didn't sleep with him in return for love. She slept with him in return for an opportunity to win his love.
Basically she was saying "You're tired of me and you want a girl that you can be romantic with and have sex with. I can do that! We can have sex and be romantic and everything!" Now if that had actually been what Hisao wanted, she might have had a point, but she didn't understand him any better than he understood her.
Flowers. Heart-shaped boxes of chocolate. Those cheesy cards they sell in stores (there are definitely romantic ones, or should be, anyway). Flavoured lubricant.[/flippancy] These are things that can be interpreted many different ways???
They can be interpreted as "aww... she's just being a cute little girl instead of trying to have an actual relationship."... well, maybe not the lube.
So letting a guy put his penis into you - and potentially get you pregnant or give you STDS (condoms do not always prevent either of those things, and indeed condoms are not even effective against some of them) - is easier than talking to a guy, or some of the things I mentioned?
Two things. One, Hanako doesn't like talking with people... or touching, or interacting, or anything really. She's pretty much shunned human contact since she was 8. She doesn't exactly know how to speak her mind that well. Two, she doesn't like people to even look at her scars. Taking off her clothes for Hisao so he could see them all was probably in her mind the ultimate act of opening up to somebody.
In fact, if the confession and the sex scene had swapped places in the storyline, I think there would have been much less angst and a much brighter future for them both - though I suppose this is conjecture, and it really could have gone either way in either case.
Without the sex scene, there's no catalyst for the confession.

People like to use the phrase White Knight alot, so let's run with that for a second.

heir relationships is a lot like two knights going to fight each other, but neither have brought weapons. They only have shields. Every move they make is defensive. Any attempt to actually reach out to the other is just a clash of shields against shields. Even if one lowers their shield enough to actually try to get through, the other still has all their defenses raised so it amounts to nothing. What they had to do was run into each other so hard and so painfully that each of their shields would break at the same time. It didn't have to be sex that changed them, but it had to be something painful.
I've been meaning to ask BTW: are you Oddball in disguise?
No. I am. ... it's not a very good disguise. Maybe I should get one of those hats that Kenji wears.
Last edited by Oddball on Thu May 03, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:46 am

Hisao DID have sex with her and she still came to the conclusion that he wasn't able to see her that way. She has VERY low self esteem.
I hope you meant to address Guest Poster, and not me, as I did not say that.
Flowers. Heart-shaped boxes of chocolate. Those cheesy cards they sell in stores (there are definitely romantic ones, or should be, anyway). Flavoured lubricant.[/flippancy] These are things that can be interpreted many different ways???
They can be interpreted as "aww... she's just being a cute little girl instead of trying to have an actual relationship."... well, maybe not the lube.
Forgive the French, but that's honest-to-God bullshit. I don't even think protective Hisao would interpret things that way. It might not be as blunt as sex, but those are kind of THE iconic (read: so hackneyed you'd have to be from Alpha Centauri not to get it - that's right; you'd have to be from a different solar system) gifts you give to someone you love, and not as a friend.
Two things. One, Hanako doesn't like talking with people... or touching, or interacting, or anything really. She's pretty much shunned human contact since she was 8. She doesn't exactly know how to speak her mind that well. Two, she doesn't like people to even look at her scars. Taking off her clothes for Hisao so he could see them all was probably in her mind the ultimate act of opening up to somebody.
Maybe. And it's certainly explicable by her habit of "trading" information.

But getting onto a bed and having sex with him? I don't think she would do that unless she were desperate.
People like to use the phrase White Knight alot, so let's run with that for a second....
What they had to do was run into each other so hard and so painfully that each of their shields would break at the same time. It didn't have to be sex that changed them, but it had to be something painful.
I'll address this later.

But while I suppose any catastrophic event might have forced them to come together or move apart, needless to say, I still think there could have been another way.

By this point, I'm pretty much arguing just for the heck of it, so feel free to ignore me if you like.

It's kind of like the Cold War, in a way, which ended not with a violent catastrophe that forced Communism and Democracy to speak on peaceful terms, but which was a "war" of attrition. Eventually, the Communist side collapsed as it got tired of being communist.

Eventually I can't help but think Hanako would get tired of her fear, or Hisao would get tired of treating her like a porcelain doll, and one, the other, or both would say "To hell with it!" and offer each other a hand to clamber over their walls.

Maybe that is what Hanako tried to do with the sex (or would have done in any case). Maybe that's what Hisao helped to do in the end.

Now that they're on the same side of the wall, and can get over freely, they're going to demolish it.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Daitengu » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:21 am

I was following the thread fine, then the really long posts came, and I lost context of what the hell people where talking about lol. Some of the answers given just... don't make sense lol,

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Mirrormn » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:36 am

Paddy wrote:
Flowers. Heart-shaped boxes of chocolate. Those cheesy cards they sell in stores (there are definitely romantic ones, or should be, anyway). Flavoured lubricant.[/flippancy] These are things that can be interpreted many different ways???
They can be interpreted as "aww... she's just being a cute little girl instead of trying to have an actual relationship."... well, maybe not the lube.
Forgive the French, but that's honest-to-God bullshit. I don't even protective Hisao would interpret things that way. It might not be as blunt as sex, but those are kind of THE iconic (read: so hackneyed you'd have to be from Alpha Centauri not to get it - that's right; you'd have to be from a different solar system) gifts you give to someone you love, and not as a friend.
Despite that being a well-ingrained aspect of popular culture, it is still very easy for one to be unsure in the interpretation of such gestures, if one is insecure enough. The fear of the embarrassment one would feel if one inferred too much meaning from a gift like that, acted upon it, and was then was told be the other party that their interpretation was mistaken, prevents one from taking any action. And I'm certainly not talking from past experience here >.>
Paddy wrote: But while I suppose any catastrophic event might have forced them to come together or move apart, needless to say, I still think there could have been another way.

By this point, I'm pretty much arguing just for the heck of it, so feel free to ignore me if you like.

It's kind of like the Cold War, in a way, which ended not with a violent catastrophe that forced Communism and Democracy to speak on peaceful terms, but which was a "war" of attrition. Eventually, the Communist side collapsed as it got tired of being communist.

Eventually I can't help but think Hanako would get tired of her fear, or Hisao would get tired of treating her like a porcelain doll, and one, the other, or both would say "To hell with it!" and offer each other a hand to clamber over their walls.

Maybe that is what Hanako tried to do with the sex (or would have done in any case). Maybe that's what Hisao helped to do in the end.

Now that they're on the same side of the wall, and can get over freely, they're going to demolish it.
I feel like this whole line of discussion has gone on far too long without reaching any new argumentative ground. Yes, Hanako and Hisao could have overcome their misunderstandings and insecurities without that specific sexual episode. In the same sense, Hanako could have confessed her feelings for Hisao way back in Act 2, and the entire route would have been unnecessary. If you're willing to redefine the characters' personalities, ensure that every attempt at communication is always interpreted perfectly and has the best possible outcome, etc., then any number of things that didn't happen in the game, could have.

But, if you're realistic about Hanako and Hisao's characterizations, and you look at other scenes in Hanako's route for supporting evidence for how they tends to react in certain situations, I think you have to conclude that if Hisao attempted to reject Hanako's sexual advances, he would most likely not be able to explain that rejection in a way that was satisfying to Hanako. Hisao struggles to express himself throughout all of the routes: he very often says the wrong thing, holds back his true feelings, is silent when a response is expected of him, etc. Also, if he tried to explain his lack of interest in sex in a straightforward way, Hanako would probably not believe it, and be plagued with thoughts of her own worthlessness and unattractiveness. Actually, I think Hisao's best immediate "out" for the situation would be to say "I really want to do this but... with my heart condition, I would probably die if I did." That would probably be believable enough for Hanako to accept it, and it would further serve to distract her from her own insecurities by making her focus on worrying about Hisao instead. Of course, after that, there would be a great deal of awkwardness between them, and a whole new set of problems to solve.

Furthermore, if you want to propose a "Cold War" solution, where Hisao and Hanako remain distanced from each other until one of them can't stand it anymore, I think you need to look at Hanako's neutral ending. The heavy implication of that ending is that making proactive steps towards Hisao is something Hanako will not do if she doesn't think he has any interest in her. Instead, Hisao will always have to make the first move. So Hanako getting "tired of her fear" is probably not going to happen. Hisao getting "tired of treating [Hanako] like a porcelain doll" is equally unlikely, because he doesn't know that's the wrong approach until after Hanako's confession and the end of the route. Before then, he still thinks that protecting her and trying at every opportunity to minimize her pain or discomfort is the exact right thing to do to get close to her. I'm afraid that any Cold War situation between Hanako and Hisao would end up in much the same way as the neutral ending.

But even all of that is negligible, because Hisao has no reason to decline sex in the first place. Somehow this conversation transitioned from how you (Paddy) would be forced to refuse sex with Hanako because of religious idealism, to how Hisao would act if he mirrored that refusal for no explicable reason. I think it's downright weird to project such a choice onto him. The lack of any clear motivation for Hisao to reject Hanako makes it really difficult to properly speculate about how the scenario would play out realistically, because it entirely based in a fully unrealistic choice.
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Guest » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:03 am

I don't want to come off here as an old smartass or something, but let me tell ya..

Some time ago I had undergone an extensive lung surgery to cure tuberculosis. The thing is, antibiotics didn't work too well, so I had to choose: give myself to the surgeon or hope things will get better over time. It was ugly: since there were medical riots at that time in my country, hospitals were understaffed and I had to keep my own ribs open - doctor cursed because he couldn't see a thing with my help :). After the operation I was feeling like wasting away - slept for 20 hours and couldn't ged rid myself from bed for few days. To this day I couldn't forgive myself that I agreed to that. I really don't know if I would be better off with drugs alone. Maybe.

Problem is, Hanako had ~1 month before graduation to convince Hisao he meant something more for her, and that she wanted to be more for him than a pet. You can call this a crush born from loneliness but.. Both of them are book smart, but world dumb and (especially her) socially impaired to some extent - teenagers. It's easy to judge in cold blood, with all facts before you. Sometimes there just isn't enough time to make a proper decision, and desperation sets in.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:07 am

Mirrormn wrote: Despite that being a well-ingrained aspect of popular culture, it is still very easy for one to be unsure in the interpretation of such gestures, if one is insecure enough. The fear of the embarrassment one would feel if one inferred too much meaning from a gift like that, acted upon it, and was then was told be the other party that their interpretation was mistaken, prevents one from taking any action. And I'm certainly not talking from past experience here >.>
In the modern, secular world, the very same thing could be said of sex. Or do the words "one night stand" mean nothing to you? ;)

I understand that there are risks that Hanako might not actually want a romantic relationship after giving those things to me. Hisao understood that after he and Hanako screwed. Indeed, there's always a risk, whether the thing a girl gives you is flowers, a mushy card or poem, chocolate hearts, her body, or whatever, that she doesn't actually want anything more than to be nice to you (or to herself).

Don't you get it, though? That's my point! The chances that Hanako wanted an intimate relationship with Hisao are the same no matter what you use, because these are all stereotypically given to people you "love"!

The gesture is not so important as the meaning!

Why the hell won't I shut up?!
Paddy wrote:*idiotic ramblings*
I won't address that part because the post it is a reply to is a half-baked, moronic thing whipped up for no particularly good reason - probably just to fill text. Considering it was very late at night and he was rushing because he had prior engagements, it's understandable, but still very, very much pointless and uncalled for.
But even all of that is negligible, because Hisao has no reason to decline sex in the first place. Somehow this conversation transitioned from how you (Paddy) would be forced to refuse sex with Hanako because of religious idealism, to how Hisao would act if he mirrored that refusal for no explicable reason. I think it's downright weird to project such a choice onto him. The lack of any clear motivation for Hisao to reject Hanako makes it really difficult to properly speculate about how the scenario would play out realistically, because it entirely based in a fully unrealistic choice.
I was beginning to wonder where I was - or we were. Thanks for the map of this wanton thread so far.

I love rambling too much for my own good - or any forum's own good.

I suppose I can't hold Hisao to standards he doesn't even know about. Nor can I hold the writers to such a standard. This is why I'm not cross with Hisao, nor the writers, nor any of the supporters on this forum for not following my standard. (I am not even quite sure I can call it Christ's.)

But I am cross with the "reality" (if you will) of things. You know how sometimes you see something that has recently happened in the world - a relationship has ended or begun, a building has been built or demolished, a job has been gotten or lost, a test has been taken and passed or failed - and sometimes you can't help but look at that event and say, "I wish things had gone differently" or "This will do. But it could have been better"?

I guess that's kind of what I've dragged you all along for. A criticism of the events. Not of the characters. Nor their personalities.

It may be of no consequence to you whether they slept together to get the ball rolling, or whether Hisao simply had the wisdom to ask. Ah, now that's another thing. You guys keep thinking I'm wanting Hisao simply to refuse to have sex with her. You don't understand. I'm wanting and believing that he'd be sharp enough to get that she wanted something that was implied by that sex - something they hadn't yet talked about properly that they later did in the park. Being a virgin, I wouldn't know if you have to have the sex first before you start thinking intelligent things like that. Or maybe that's just part of being a dumb 18-year old in a tight spot with a pretty girl.

But I wish he had acted smarter. He certainly had the brains to do it. Nothing in her or his personality would have stopped things from ending up differently. But things did not end up that way, and that's what I don't like.

I suppose it's a moot point since it will never change the way things panned out. And that's fine. History is history. What's done is done. I couldn't change what happened between those two if I wanted (or at least what the authors made the story to be).

So why am I arguing a moot point? Especially when I should be in bed, or studying my theatre books or practising my monologue or trying to find a job/volunteer work/something useful to do?

I have no idea. I'm going to stop now and go do something more useful, like making smart remarks in one of the other threads. Or who knows? Maybe cleaning something?
I'm weary of the railway,
Poor Paddy works on the railway.

Блажен муж, иже не иде на совет нечестивых.
Blessed is the man, who walks not in the counsel of the wicked. (Psalm 1:1)
Got questions about God, Christianity, or the Catholic Church?

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Guest Poster » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:31 pm

But I am cross with the "reality" (if you will) of things. You know how sometimes you see something that has recently happened in the world - a relationship has ended or begun, a building has been built or demolished, a job has been gotten or lost, a test has been taken and passed or failed - and sometimes you can't help but look at that event and say, "I wish things had gone differently" or "This will do. But it could have been better"?

I guess that's kind of what I've dragged you all along for. A criticism of the events. Not of the characters. Nor their personalities.
More specifically, you wished the sex plot twist wouldn't have happened. But then the whole arc would have played out differently. Hanako's arc isn't a gentle ride through happy-go-lucky land. It's an "earn your happy ending"-route. I know this may sound somewhat personal, but maybe you're taking the sex scene way too hard...as if Hisao and Hanako just strangled a kitten together instead of having awkward misguided intercourse. Sure, their first time wasn't particularly enjoyable to either, but it could have been much worse. Quite a few teenagers tend to lose their virginity under worse circumstances, like after a night of drunkness with someone they have no real emotional connection with, or to someone with a "player"-personality who was only looking for notches on his bedpost. Hanako and Hisao lost their virginity for the wrong reason, but with the right person. Both of them, even though they weren't really conciously aware of it yet, already loved the other. And something undeniably good came out of it. I'm pretty sure that, at some point in the future, after a round of loving, cuddly sex, Hisao and Hanako will be able to look back on that night and simply laugh it off in a typical "we were so silly back then"-kind of way. You could look upon it that way.
It may be of no consequence to you whether they slept together to get the ball rolling, or whether Hisao simply had the wisdom to ask. Ah, now that's another thing. You guys keep thinking I'm wanting Hisao simply to refuse to have sex with her. You don't understand. I'm wanting and believing that he'd be sharp enough to get that she wanted something that was implied by that sex - something they hadn't yet talked about properly that they later did in the park.
Isn't that kind of the same though? You're wishing Hisao managed to deduce Hanako's reasoning prior to the act...and acted accordingly. (which would have been to refuse sex...Hisao wouldn't have slept with her if he knew her motivations) But he didn't...that's the whole conflict of the arc. Hisao didn't really understand Hanako and she didn't understand him either. Both made wrong assumptions about the motivations of the other and acting upon those assumptions caused grief for the other. If Hisao had been a mind reader, the whole arc would have played out differently.
Being a virgin, I wouldn't know if you have to have the sex first before you start thinking intelligent things like that. Or maybe that's just part of being a dumb 18-year old in a tight spot with a pretty girl.
Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Hanako's train of thought only makes sense if you're aware of the events in her past that shaped the way she became...and she never shared those events with anyone beforehand. Even Lilly has some key points wrong about Hanako's issues and she's been around her far longer than Hisao has. Hindsight is 20-20, but there's no way Hisao would have been able to comprehend Hanako's reasoning before she let him in on what she really was thinking.
But I wish he had acted smarter. He certainly had the brains to do it. Nothing in her or his personality would have stopped things from ending up differently. But things did not end up that way, and that's what I don't like.
I don't get it. The route was a bit of a bumpy ride, but the ending was very hopeful and optimistic. Hisao and Hanako both ended up communicating honestly about their feelings and changed their unstable codependant friendship into a blossoming romance that had a steady foundation based on equality and a mutual desire to help each other growth. Hisao, contrary to his previous habits, says the exact thing Hanako needs to hear once her confidence starts slipping, showing he finally learned how to support her properly and gets to see the sight of Hanako being genuinely happy for the first time in a long while. Hanako, contrary to her previous habits, manages to set aside her social anxieties for a moment and kisses Hisao in public. Is that optimistic and heartwarming ending really spoiled THAT badly by the fact Hisao and Hanako had sex for the wrong reasons the night before instead of saying to yourself "D'awwwww, now THAT was worth the whole thing."

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:20 am

Guest Poster wrote:More specifically, you wished the sex plot twist wouldn't have happened. But then the whole arc would have played out differently. Hanako's arc isn't a gentle ride through happy-go-lucky land.
You don't say? I thought I'd been dating Belldandy from Aa! Megami-sama! Or some chick from an H-film. You know, the easy type. The type that has absolutely no inhibitions at all and is completely easy-going.
It's an "earn your happy ending"-route. I know this may sound somewhat personal, but maybe you're taking the sex scene way too hard...as if Hisao and Hanako just strangled a kitten together instead of having awkward misguided intercourse.
Mmmmm... I don't think you understand my beef with it, then. :|
I mean, I'm going berserk over it or anything like that. Don't get me wrong. This is not a life-changing incident for me in the least.

But the problem is not the awkwardness or awful feelings it caused. I'm not opposed to shaking people up at all.
Mirrormn was right. The problem I have with it is not something you would understand because a fair portion of it is rooted in my Catholic culture - in many religious cultures. In fact, before the Modern Era, it was pretty much common knowledge, and common sense.

See, when a man and a woman copulate, they bond themselves together, spiritually and physically. They lose each themselves in each other and become one. There is even a chemical called oxytocin that cements the spiritual bond and makes it all that much stronger. The Catholic Church, of which I am a part, recognises that bonding as something... monumental. When you do it, you are bonded to that person for life. And if a couple had a marriage ceremony but never consummated it, that could easily be grounds to say there never was a true marriage. That's how important it is. Having sex while not intending such a monumental, total, and committed purpose is as much as lying - to them, and to yourself. And it's a terrible lie. It's as bad as saying you'll marry a girl then leaving her at the altar. Even more-so if a child, an STD, or a mental scar (like not being able to trust another man again) are abandoned to the hands of one or both parties.

In short, fornicating - that is, having sex without being committed to the one you are having sex with - is a foolish and potentially harmful thing for both parties. And not just because God Almighty said so, but because it is true. We've witnessed grossly in the past 50 years mountains of evidence for this. One example is that the number of divorces have risen to an all-time high. The numbers of impoverished single mothers has also drastically increased. And while we can argue 'til we're blue in the face over whether abortion is completely evil, surely something is off when 42 million fetuses/embryos are being aborted every year wordlwide - and half of these have abortions because their contraception failed.

Like I say, you probably don't see it that way. Hisao and Hanako probably didn't, either. And the way the world is, that's hardly surprising.

Now, to get the good endings, Hisao had to be committed to Emi, and Lilly, and Shizune (each in their own different ways - not having played Rin, I cannot comment). I don't mean he had to be protective of them. But he had to show that he was never going to give them up, let them down, or run around and hurt them. (Rick Astley really did say it best.) In other words, by the time they'd had sex, in the good ends, you were pretty much already committed to them for life (even if they were not to you).

To get the good ending in Hanako's route you had to have sex with her... but were you really going to be as committed as you would have been with those other girls? Yes he was, ultimately, but at that moment...

I know I must seem to be making mountains out of molehills. But commitment's an issue that is terribly important, to me. It's one of the first things this game inspired me to think about when I was playing it. :(

And while, yes, the sex helped to break Hanako out of her shell, and yes, eventually they did come to agree to some kind of romantic commitment, what I lament is that the sex and the commitment had nothing to do with each other in either of their minds, when commitment is one of the things sex is exactly best at cementing.
Hanako and Hisao lost their virginity for the wrong reason, but with the right person. Both of them, even though they weren't really conciously aware of it yet, already loved the other.
Hm... you know, you're right. :?

Although it was a shot in the dark. They could have ended up completely alienating each other. I'm glad it did not turn out that way. And maybe subconciously it was kind of Hanako and Hisao pouring themselves out to one another and finally committing.

But, that's rather much of a gamble. And I'm not a gambling man. Image
Isn't that kind of the same though? You're wishing Hisao managed to deduce Hanako's reasoning prior to the act...
Oh, I never said that. I was hoping he'd be sharp enough to pick up that something was wrong. Not any specific thing, but just... something.

Sometimes people are confronted with a situation that makes them stop and think "Hm... something's off about this... but I can't quite put my finger on it...". That's something people do. And when they do pick up that something's "off", they try and figure out what. And Hisao simply could not have figured out what without asking Hanako for herself.
But he didn't...that's the whole conflict of the arc. Hisao didn't really understand Hanako and she didn't understand him either. Both made wrong assumptions about the motivations of the other and acting upon those assumptions caused grief for the other.
So... perhaps the authors never thought their sex at that stage was a good idea to begin with?
I always kinda felt that sex scene was kind of thrown in just so Hanako would have a sex scene. It just didn't match up with their relationship at the time. It seemed out of place for a good ending.

This idea of yours makes me think it is out-of-place - and it's supposed to be.
But I wish he had acted smarter. He certainly had the brains to do it. Nothing in her or his personality would have stopped things from ending up differently. But things did not end up that way, and that's what I don't like.
I don't get it. Is that optimistic and heartwarming ending really spoiled THAT badly by the fact Hisao and Hanako had sex for the wrong reasons the night before instead of saying to yourself "D'awwwww, now THAT was worth the whole thing."
If you mean, "Is it completely ruined?", then no. Of course not.
But to simply shrug it off because everything turned out OK isn't right, either.

Our life's purpose is not to feel guilty for ever and ever about all the bad things we've done.
At the same time, pretending that we did nothing wrong simply because things turned out OK is denial that will fester and grow worse with time.

We have to confront the stupid things we've done, realise how wrong they really were, turn away from them utterly because of their wrongness, and repair the damage we've done as best we can. Only then can we truly be free to turn towards good things, and embrace them with our whole hearts.
...
...
...
...You know? When I think about it, that's exactly what they did in the park.

Thank you, Guest Poster, for taking this time to respond to me. You've really helped me see the good in all that's happened. :)

Ja mata ne! ;)
I'm weary of the railway,
Poor Paddy works on the railway.

Блажен муж, иже не иде на совет нечестивых.
Blessed is the man, who walks not in the counsel of the wicked. (Psalm 1:1)
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Mirrormn » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:43 am

Paddy wrote:So... perhaps the authors never thought their sex at that stage was a good idea to begin with?
I always kinda felt that sex scene was kind of thrown in just so Hanako would have a sex scene. It just didn't match up with their relationship at the time. It seemed out of place for a good ending.

This idea of yours makes me think it is out-of-place - and it's supposed to be.
Wait, what? Of course their sex scene is intentionally designed to seem "out of place". The whole point is that it's awkward and painful - physically for Hanako and emotionally for Hisao (after the fact). Of course it wasn't a great idea for them to have sex, from an outside point of view: based on later admissions, Hanako's intentions were really rather manipulative, Hisao's feelings for her weren't really solidified at the time, Hanako thoroughly didn't enjoy the act itself, and Hisao felt really awful about it the day after. It wasn't a great idea for either of them. Nobody's arguing that.

But!:
Paddy wrote:But I wish he had acted smarter. He certainly had the brains to do it. Nothing in her or his personality would have stopped things from ending up differently. But things did not end up that way, and that's what I don't like.
You're just completely wrong about this. Hisao did not have the brains to do "it" (I assume that means, avoid having sex with Hanako and yet still achieve the same ending). Everything about their personalities would have stopped things from ending up differently (I assume that means, the same ending, with a different path to it). They were locked in to a situation in which having sex was a bad idea, but the limited number of realisitc alternatives were even worse, and would have ended up with them not reconciling and not confessing to each other at all.
Paddy wrote:not having played Rin, I cannot comment
Go play Rin's route, damnit! It has sex under even more questionable circumstances, I'm sure you'll love it!
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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:42 am

Mirrormn wrote:
Paddy wrote:So... perhaps the authors never thought their sex at that stage was a good idea to begin with?
I always kinda felt that sex scene was kind of thrown in just so Hanako would have a sex scene. It just didn't match up with their relationship at the time. It seemed out of place for a good ending.

This idea of yours makes me think it is out-of-place - and it's supposed to be.
Wait, what? Of course their sex scene is intentionally designed to seem "out of place". The whole point is that it's awkward and painful - physically for Hanako and emotionally for Hisao (after the fact). Of course it wasn't a great idea for them to have sex, from an outside point of view: based on later admissions, Hanako's intentions were really rather manipulative, Hisao's feelings for her weren't really solidified at the time, Hanako thoroughly didn't enjoy the act itself, and Hisao felt really awful about it the day after. It wasn't a great idea for either of them. Nobody's arguing that.
I got rather myopic about it. :oops:
But!:
Paddy wrote:But I wish he had acted smarter. He certainly had the brains to do it. Nothing in her or his personality would have stopped things from ending up differently. But things did not end up that way, and that's what I don't like.
You're just completely wrong about this. Hisao did not have the brains to do "it" (I assume that means, avoid having sex with Hanako and yet still achieve the same ending).
Not exactly. Guest Poster thought the same thing. See my post above.

I didn't want Hisao to solve the whole puzzle and be Mr. Clever. I just thought he'd be smart enough to see something was weird, and would ask Hanako what that something was. That's not exactly asking for a lot of brain power. :?
Paddy wrote:not having played Rin, I cannot comment
Go play Rin's route, damnit! It has sex under even more questionable circumstances, I'm sure you'll love it!
Being the amateur theologian I am, I'm sure you're right! :mrgreen:
I'm weary of the railway,
Poor Paddy works on the railway.

Блажен муж, иже не иде на совет нечестивых.
Blessed is the man, who walks not in the counsel of the wicked. (Psalm 1:1)
Got questions about God, Christianity, or the Catholic Church?

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Guest Poster » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:37 am

Like I say, you probably don't see it that way. Hisao and Hanako probably didn't, either. And the way the world is, that's hardly surprising.
I'm aware of the mindset, but it's not a mindset I share. (and like you said, Hisao and Hanako probably didn't either) I don't really think trying to fit KS into a strict catholic mold is a really good idea...by that standard, all intercourse throughout the game is wrong and unacceptable. It's highschool teenage romance, not a fairy tale, and I think most relationships around that time aren't made with long-term commitment ideas in mind, but simply because it feels right at the time. Some of those relationships last after graduation, others don't. I won't go too much into some of the other stuff you said, since I'm having the impression that'll get this thread locked REALLY quickly. ;)
To get the good ending in Hanako's route you had to have sex with her... but were you really going to be as committed as you would have been with those other girls? Yes he was, ultimately, but at that moment...
At that moment, Hisao thought accepting Hanako's advances was the best option to take.
And while, yes, the sex helped to break Hanako out of her shell, and yes, eventually they did come to agree to some kind of romantic commitment, what I lament is that the sex and the commitment had nothing to do with each other in either of their minds, when commitment is one of the things sex is exactly best at cementing.
It was a bad decision made by the characters and it's also considered as such in-game. The game itself portrays it as something that was kind of a dumb thing to do.
Although it was a shot in the dark. They could have ended up completely alienating each other.
Yes, and they nearly did. And they knew they nearly did. And because they knew, they found the motivation to open up to each other in a way they wouldn't have been able to before.
Sometimes people are confronted with a situation that makes them stop and think "Hm... something's off about this... but I can't quite put my finger on it...". That's something people do. And when they do pick up that something's "off", they try and figure out what. And Hisao simply could not have figured out what without asking Hanako for herself.
I think if Hisao would have asked "what's wrong?", Hanako would have replied with something like "N...nothing." It's not like she was planning to share her motivations beforehand. (or afterwards, for that matter)
So... perhaps the authors never thought their sex at that stage was a good idea to begin with?
I always kinda felt that sex scene was kind of thrown in just so Hanako would have a sex scene. It just didn't match up with their relationship at the time. It seemed out of place for a good ending.

This idea of yours makes me think it is out-of-place - and it's supposed to be.
BINGO!!!!! You can safely skip the "maybe". That WAS the point of the whole scene. It WAS out of place. It WAS awkward and uncomfortable. It WAS too early for both of them. It WAS completely physical instead of physical AND emotional as it should have been. It WAS, given that the talk in the park was a salvaging attempt and not a logical followup that Hanako could have predicted, an extremely bad idea. Why else do you think "Painful History" was playing during their sex scene instead of a more lovey-dovey tune? What you felt while watching that scene was most likely exactly what the writers wanted you to feel. It wasn't meant to be tintilating, it was meant to be cringe-inducing.

It WAS NOT thrown in just so Hanako could have a sex scene in her path, btw. In fact, it's the most plot-relevant sex scene in the entire game. It also shows Hanako's desperation.
If you mean, "Is it completely ruined?", then no. Of course not.
But to simply shrug it off because everything turned out OK isn't right, either.

Our life's purpose is not to feel guilty for ever and ever about all the bad things we've done.
At the same time, pretending that we did nothing wrong simply because things turned out OK is denial that will fester and grow worse with time.

We have to confront the stupid things we've done, realise how wrong they really were, turn away from them utterly because of their wrongness, and repair the damage we've done as best we can. Only then can we truly be free to turn towards good things, and embrace them with our whole hearts.
...
...
...
...You know? When I think about it, that's exactly what they did in the park.

Thank you, Guest Poster, for taking this time to respond to me. You've really helped me see the good in all that's happened.
In the end, the misguided sex and the uncomfortable aftermath between them wasn't in any way different than the stonewalling Emi did or Lilly leaving Hisao behind to migrate to Scotland. It was a crisis that ended up being averted and turned into a good ending, because despite the walls between them neither Hanako nor Hisao were willing to give up on the other just yet. The characters did learn from it...Hisao and Hanako learned to be open and honest with each other and the next time they'd have sex (while maybe still awkward) would be as boyfriend and girlfriend seeking closeness with each other. The only pity about it is, as many people thought, due to the story arc ending, we never get to see it. That's, I guess, what imagination is for.

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Re: Is it just me, or is Hanako better off... [Hanako Spoile

Post by Paddy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:25 am

Guest Poster wrote:I'm aware of the mindset, but it's not a mindset I share. (and like you said, Hisao and Hanako probably didn't either) I don't really think trying to fit KS into a strict catholic mold is a really good idea...by that standard, all intercourse throughout the game is wrong and unacceptable.
Only if it is Catholics we are talking about, because they follow the revealed, divine law of God - that is, the teachings of Christ and His Church. As non-Christians do not recognise the authority of the divine law, I can't hold them to it. I can only hold them to the natural law, which by no means requires a man and a woman to have a marriage ceremony in order to have sex in the graces of God. In the natural law, sex kind of becomes that ceremony in and of itself. At least, I think...

That's why I have no problem with Emi and Lilly's sex scenes, and maybe not even with Hanako's, as they were consummating a commitment they'd already made. But then I did and still wonder about Hanako and Hisao, because of the reason behind their act.
I think if Hisao would have asked "what's wrong?", Hanako would have replied with something like "N...nothing." It's not like she was planning to share her motivations beforehand. (or afterwards, for that matter)
And I think I know why you would say that. It would be putting her on the spot, wouldn't it? Hm. And she doesn't do terribly well when she's put on the spot, does she?

Of course, it would have been herself who put herself on the spot - and not Hisao - so who knows?
It WAS NOT thrown in just so Hanako could have a sex scene in her path, btw. In fact, it's the most plot-relevant sex scene in the entire game. It also shows Hanako's desperation.
Let's agree to disagree here.
In the end, the misguided sex and the uncomfortable aftermath between them wasn't in any way different than the stonewalling Emi did or Lilly leaving Hisao behind to migrate to Scotland. It was a crisis that ended up being averted and turned into a good ending, because despite the walls between them neither Hanako nor Hisao were willing to give up on the other just yet. The characters did learn from it...Hisao and Hanako learned to be open and honest with each other and the next time they'd have sex (while maybe still awkward) would be as boyfriend and girlfriend seeking closeness with each other. The only pity about it is, as many people thought, due to the story arc ending, we never get to see it. That's, I guess, what imagination is for.
Hm, there is actually a similarity between Lilly, Emi, Shizune and Hanako (still haven't played Rin yet), now that I think of it. They all, in some way or another, abuse the sexual law, that it's supposed to bind you together, not push you apart. It shows the weaknesses of each of the girls, so it is conducive to the plot, but it does end up being reconciled in the end.

Emi uses sex to distract you from the emotional problems she has, which alienates you from each other.

Lilly almost ends a relationship that was almost never in doubt. Ending it to be with her family, which she has not seen in 6 years, I can understand. Still.

When Shizune firsttied you to the chair, it's more like she was using you to express feelings she had for you, without letting you talk. But that is how Shizune is - aggressive to the point of silencing others. That is, until she gets to know you better. (I'm sure I've misinterpreted their scene - I did not really get Shizune - but of course that's for another thread. The essential argument here is that, like the others, in her first time shagging you she showed some of her glaring imperfections, which now she is moving away from and turning to fix.)

And Hanako... well, we've discussed that.

This game is such an interesting commentary on humanity.
I'm weary of the railway,
Poor Paddy works on the railway.

Блажен муж, иже не иде на совет нечестивых.
Blessed is the man, who walks not in the counsel of the wicked. (Psalm 1:1)
Got questions about God, Christianity, or the Catholic Church?

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