Guest Poster wrote:
I agree that Hanako was probably not, er, madly in love with Hisao. I could have worded that better.
That's not what I said, actually. Hanako was in love with Hisao, no doubt about that, and has been for quite a while. With her, it's difficult to figure out, but I wouldn't have been surprised if she developed a crush on him around the time she first thanked him for hanging out with her in Act 1.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu23 ... v8s760.gif
(Not at you. At the poor communication and comprehension on my part.)
I don't think she necessarily wanted a romantic relationship. She thought Hisao wanted one. There is a difference there.
But I think it safe to say she merely wanted a friendship. Not to be pitied, but to be loved as a person, even if she was not loved as a better half. I think... that would have been enough for her.
Hanako thought Hisao was looking for a girlfriend and she failed his aptitude test for being a burden to him. So she seduced him in an attempt to show him that she wasn't a child and that she was capable of...being with a man as much as any other girl.
This I can buy. Most certainly.
Make no mistake, Hanako wanted more than just a friendship with Hisao. Just before kissing him on the lips, Hanako states she's wanted to do this for a very long time. She wouldn't have said that if she didn't desire a romantic relationship with him. You don't kiss mere friends on the lips.
Don't European friends kiss each other?
But nitpicking aside, yes.. you are correct. She did want a BF/GF with Hisao. You can tell it's not because she kissed him, but because she'd been wanting to do it for so long. You don't long to kiss friends. You are right.
But from her words in the park, though, I think simply being Hisao's friend would have been acceptable (if not ideal, and maybe if it had not escalated to sex). So long as the relationship was a genuine person-to-person relationship, and not like a relationship between a man and a pet, or a man and a toy. She'd never felt she'd had been treated like a human being after the fire.
The trading thing is indeed very much how Hanako sees human relationships. It's a recurring dynamic in the developing bond between her and Hisao. After Hanako got scarred by the fire, the children she thought were here friends became her bullies. Because of this, Hanako finds it nearly impossible to believe people would treasure her merely for "being her". So instead, she judges her perceived value to people by the amount of "favors" she can return in kind. It allows her to measure her value by a non-abstract measuring stick.
This is the main reason why Hanako found her place relatively quickly in the newspaper club in Lilly's route...her classmates gave her stuff to do that she was good at and because she got to make herself useful, her self-esteem improved.
This is also the reason why she secretly felt insecure about her relationship with Lilly. Hanako loved Lilly, no doubt about that, but the relationship was unbalanced and Hanako knew this. Hanako relied on Lilly a lot as an emotional crutch. But Lilly wouldn't rely on Hanako for emotional support whenever she was troubled. (we learn in Lilly's route that Lilly doesn't like to share her burdens with others) This is a shame because if she had, their friendship would have been a lot deeper and Hanako would have opened up to Lilly more.
Mind you, I am not sure whether Lilly or Hanako's route is better for Hanako, simply because I do not know enough about Hanako's route in the end. I am not saying Lilly's route was better for her. It may be quite the opposite, and this discussion has been making me think more and more it is the better route.
However, and I can't stress that enough, the sex was NOT part of one of Hanako's typical "trading" actions. She didn't sleep with him in return for love. She slept with him in return for an opportunity to win his love.
I'm afraid I don't understand. It's certainly a bold move on her part, and definitely an attempt to reach out to Hisao to try to be his girlfriend. But I don't see any less how it was an attempt to "trade" on her part. In fact, it seems like what a lot of girls do today: they have sex with their boyfriends hoping they will continue to love them.
Without the threat of their friendship ending, I doubt Hanako would have been able to admit her lack of trust in Hisao and Lilly, nor do I think Hisao would have admitted to Hanako he indeed used to see her as a fragile child who had to be protected.
A friendship can end just as quickly before bedding as after. After all, why would Hanako want to do this? Hisao didn't know. He had every right to ask why. Just as much as having sex is not something friends do, indicating you WANT to have sex is not something friends do, either.
But by accepting her attempt to seduce him, it became a shared slip-up instead of just an error in Hanako's judgement. That sense of equality was important. It wasn't just Hanako who needed to spit things out, the same was true for Hisao. Both of them sharing responsibility for what happened was an important factor in their mutual venting session.
"Seduced" is an interesting word. You make her sound like a succubus. (Not that I'm implying anything.)
They were already mutually responsible for something - for their entire relationship. And both had flubbed in properly maintaining it. Hisao admitted he was "sneaking behind her back" - presumably he meant asking Lilly for help.
Even then, all they needed was some kind of event to force one or the other of them ask the big question: "What is our relationship to each other?"
Wrote an ode
I realize this is just an example, but we're talking about a girl here who hardly ever speaks in more than short single sentences.
or bought him something that expressed just how she felt about him. And he could have done those same things, too
It's actually pretty difficult to get out of the friend zone by simply buying gifts. Even "I love you" can be interpreted in many different ways and not the specific way that Hanako desired.
Flowers. Heart-shaped boxes of chocolate. Those cheesy cards they sell in stores (there are definitely romantic ones, or should be, anyway). Flavoured lubricant.[/flippancy] These are things that can be interpreted many different ways???
That was unfortunately before she had that breakdown in class at which point he decided that a romantic interest was not what she needed right now.
He still wanted it, though. But that's a good point. It did kind of shift his view of her a bit, didn't it?
I understand as much, but just about every one of those ways involved actually opening up which neither was really prepared to do until the situation had them at gunpoint. Which was the main problem. If "simply telling them so" was really that easy, then yes, the sex would have been unnecessary.
So letting a guy put his penis into you - and potentially get you pregnant or give you STDS (condoms do not always prevent either of those things, and indeed condoms are not even effective against some of them) - is easier than talking to a guy, or some of the things I mentioned?
What a astonishing world you must live in.
I simply think Hanako was ignorant of any other way than sex. That, or she thought sex would be the most/only effective way. (Maybe she reads/watches more porn/romantic novels than we know.
That would certainly be understandable.)
Ultimately, Hanako's drastic action addressed one directly and by creating a crisis in their friendship, forced the addressing of the second one.
Not denying this. I'm simply denying sex had to be the only way or the easiest way. It certainly was a convenient way to make a sex scene part of the plot. But it needed not be so.
In fact, if the confession and the sex scene had swapped places in the storyline, I think there would have been much less angst and a much brighter future for them both - though I suppose this is conjecture, and it really could have gone either way in either case.
Indeed, Hisao and Hanako's relationship need not have improved at all after the sex scene.
But none of it would have been hitting the mark. Hanako's and Hisao's finally coming out and bearing all their emotions to each other? THAT was hitting the mark.
Ultimately, this is what solved things for real. Or rather, pointed them both in the right direction to start the process of getting to know each other for real.
Ok, good. This we can agree on.
The pleasure was all mine. I have a tendency to quote-pick posts, which sometimes comes across as a bit argumentative, but don't let that bother you. We actually agree on a lot, we're not going to agree on everything, but I can see we can respectfully disagree on the points of view we don't share.
Fine by me. I like argumentative. I don't like people who simply yield and say "Hey, sure, whatever you say" without really meaning it.
Then again, that's kind of what this forum is for, isn't it? Dialogue.
I can agree that something needed to be a catalyst - or at least would have made it easier and the story less drawn out.
I just don't agree that that thing necessarily had to be sex, that's all.
And in fact not only because I hope for there to be a more God-approved method to resolve their feelings. Another reason I argue my point is because we expect to see intercourse in this game. It's just a normal part of the course of things in the world the devs wrote (perhaps even in the world we see around us). It would take us aback (maybe disappoint some) if they did not see some kind of sex scene relevant to the plot. But it need not be so. These stories would be just as deep without them. (Yes, I realise there's a checkbox just for that.)
I've been meaning to ask BTW: are you Oddball in disguise?
EDIT: Oh, dawnstorm's post made me think of another thing. Whatever the case, one of them would have had to take the initiative. Whether it was Hisao who invited Hanako to have sex/talk/make out/take a gift/go steady, or Hanako who would invite Hisao to, one of them - either one of them - would have had to.
2ND EDIT: And I'm not advocating white-knighting. If I were to love Hanako, it would be regardless of her shortcomings, not because of them. Her scars would have no bearing on her being a precious person. I would protect any girl I did not want to screw things up with, scarred or scarless, submissive or aggressive, from premarital sex.
Although, looking at the stuff we've discussed, I can understand why Hisao
(not me) not doing this would be taken the wrong way.