Why the hate for Shizune ??

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Malkav
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Malkav » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:40 pm

Wow; this topic stirred up quite the discussion! After reading everyone's points, but not finding one that quite matched my thoughts, I think I'll jump in, at the risk of creating a potentially disruptive set of ripples.

Being a rather industrious and goal-oriented guy, I began Hakamichi Shizune's arc feeling pretty excited. I'm not a particularly outgoing individual, nor am I all that competitive, but the idea of working hard to accomplish something for the benefit of everyone is a rather significant part of who I am. And, of course, her route was generally pleasing. More specifically, the changes that arose in Hisao were the most admirable I had seen out of all five story arcs. He became a fine and well-adjusted (for the most part) individual who was capable of not only living a stable, productive life within Yamaku, but doing so outside in the real world, as well. Similarly, I found Shizune's childish and carefree 'games' to be quite endearing, and her seriousness regarding work ethics did not hurt at all .

What turned me off about her, however, was the way she regarded other individuals. Yes, she stated that she cared for others, and even worked superficially to try and help them. When it came to the bottom line, however, she expected others to adapt to her, rather than changing her tactics or attitude even a little to work toward a better situation for all involved. It was very easy to see that at least a little of her father's arrogance had rubbed off, and unfortunately, that's just one of those automatic turn-off traits for me. In fact, I believe it was hinted that she didn't even acknowledge that she did this; she is described as being incapable of understanding any approach to problem-solving other than her own. This, when combined with her selfish desire for competition, puts some of her otherwise positive accomplishments in a different light.

What this all boils down to, I think, is a mixture of personal preference and literary interpretation. We all have different lists and priorities of personality traits we enjoy in individuals; as such, we tend to have different opinions about different people. Furthermore, since we don't share the same mindset, we will undoubtedly paint the words written in this story differently, either because of bias or lack thereof. But that's cool. Many of us have found a story to which we can truly connect in Katawa Shoujo. And I think that's the important part.

As an aside, I personally preferred Hanako's story arc, both because of Ms. Ikezawa's personality traits and simply because her history mirrored my own life's story so closely that I was brought to tears. To me, it was somehow indescribably comforting to see that, whether by happenstance storytelling or another stranger's experiences, a very important portion of my life was not just my experience, alone, but someone else's, as well. For that, this story will remain forever dear to me.

TL;DR Version: Everyone has differences in opinion; what's important is how awesome Katawa Shoujo, as a whole, turned out to be.

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GIRakaCHEEZER
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by GIRakaCHEEZER » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:54 am

Something that turned me off from her character was that originally I was going for the "Misha route" (I had not done my research, did not know that there was not one) and then accidentally ended up on Shizzy's path. So I felt kind of cheated out of Misha at first and subsequently got her bad ending first time around (it was pretty obvious that the decision was a bad one though). I thought it was hilarious when Misha revealed that she was in love with Shizzy, since it just made so much sense in retrospect.

But as others have said her competitive nature comes off negatively when it seems to be the most important thing to her. Shizune is goal-oriented to the extreme, it would've been nice if she could have toned that down every now and then.

Out of all the characters I think she's the most stubborn.
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Rin = Kenji > Hanako > Emi > Lilly > Shizune

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Daitengu
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Daitengu » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:08 am

GIRakaCHEEZER wrote:Something that turned me off from her character was that originally I was going for the "Misha route" (I had not done my research, did not know that there was not one) and then accidentally ended up on Shizzy's path. So I felt kind of cheated out of Misha at first and subsequently got her bad ending first time around (it was pretty obvious that the decision was a bad one though). I thought it was hilarious when Misha revealed that she was in love with Shizzy, since it just made so much sense in retrospect.

But as others have said her competitive nature comes off negatively when it seems to be the most important thing to her. Shizune is goal-oriented to the extreme, it would've been nice if she could have toned that down every now and then.

Out of all the characters I think she's the most stubborn.
There's also the problem that Shizune uses competition as a guise for teasing, helping, and even understanding more about Hisao. compounded with being Deaf, it's harder to read motivation. But yeah, Shizune is definitely a black/white, win/lose only type of character in a grey scale world. I think her father was put in just so we knew where she got that messed up attitude from. Hideaki probably wears what he wears just to piss his dad off too for that matter.

Probably why it's hard for me to deal with her. I'm more abstract like Rin, so I just couldn't get into Shizune. I tend to clash hard against black/white visioned people IRL.

rydiafan
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by rydiafan » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:38 am

I never thought ppl cared/disliked this much about Shizune

this is why this game is great ... 5 totally different girls ( well 6 ) that ppl care or dislike for different reason ... they became more then smart big boobed one , blonde snobby big boobed one , sporty small boobed one , shy big boobed one ect ... if anyone else did KS it would have been cripple porn ... But 4ls made the girls ppl we defend or bash because of the way we think with our hearts not our cocks

bravo 4ls

now back to the topic lol

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AnonymousOfNorway
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by AnonymousOfNorway » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:04 am

rydiafan wrote:because of the way we think with our hearts not our cocks
Or with them both in harmony, as it were. Ahem.
Loved tenderly: Emi (g), Hanako (g), Lily (g). Friend-zoned: Shizune, Rin. To-do: Kenji, Yuuko, Misha

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Eclipse
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Eclipse » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:49 am

Personally, I liked Shizune.
But her route was too easy, in my opinion.
(ironically, I comforted Misha unaware of what the *comforting* was, then switched back to refuse)
Other than that, there were no other parts in the story to help you have a choice.
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Mysterious Stranger
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:37 pm

Eclipse wrote:Personally, I liked Shizune.
But her route was too easy, in my opinion.
(ironically, I comforted Misha unaware of what the *comforting* was, then switched back to refuse)
Other than that, there were no other parts in the story to help you have a choice.
Just curious, but how exactly do you quantify difficulty in a visual novel?
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dunkelfalke
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by dunkelfalke » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:45 pm

Remember11.
I dare you to play it through without dieing at least 5 times.

Ah sorry, this is not a quantification. Here it goes:
lots of decision points, some of them require thinking, some of them are just guessing. And you've got to take all right ones. That is difficult. Very difficult is when you've made a choice, that has got dire consequences only much later.
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FlyingPiranha
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by FlyingPiranha » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:16 am

I didn't hate her, but I definitely found her path the least affecting. Her story didn't hit me the same way as any of the other girls' did - in general, her whole path seemed very wishy washy to me - one moment she's showing her affection (albeit in one, uh, 'daring' way), and the next she seems as distant as an acquaintance. And then, in the end, when she winds up not returning Hisao's "I love you", it was so disappointing. It felt like, maybe, their relationship was building up into something more, but it still wound up kind of getting nixed in the end.
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Synthus
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Synthus » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:46 am

Mostly agreed, which is her path is probably the one that has benefited the most from (good) fanfiction.

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Daitengu
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Daitengu » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:41 am

FlyingPiranha wrote:I didn't hate her, but I definitely found her path the least affecting. Her story didn't hit me the same way as any of the other girls' did - in general, her whole path seemed very wishy washy to me - one moment she's showing her affection (albeit in one, uh, 'daring' way), and the next she seems as distant as an acquaintance. And then, in the end, when she winds up not returning Hisao's "I love you", it was so disappointing. It felt like, maybe, their relationship was building up into something more, but it still wound up kind of getting nixed in the end.
Shizune said it herself. She compartmentalizes everything. Means she tends to have a 1 track mind. When it's council time, that's all she does. When it's class time, that's all she does. When it's Hisao time, that's all she does. She definitely doesn't act like the average person, but then, none of em do.

Joeshmoelb
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Joeshmoelb » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:01 am

I think Shizune's path can be explained much easier than what most of you have posted, and it seems most of you are missing one fundamental point that most of the other routes don't come even close to. In Shizune's Route, Hisao changes the most out of any other route. To put it simply, most of the other routes conclude with Hisao being able to accept himself, and the girl he loves and is able to move forward. But with Shizune, even his personality changes drastically, finally being able to put most of his thoughts into words, instead of simply brooding alone.

In the end, each route simply has a different expression of love.

Synthus
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Synthus » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:19 am

Covered in the other threads, I think, though it probably bears reposting anyway.

Morello
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Morello » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:24 am

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Eclipse wrote:Personally, I liked Shizune.
But her route was too easy, in my opinion.
(ironically, I comforted Misha unaware of what the *comforting* was, then switched back to refuse)
Other than that, there were no other parts in the story to help you have a choice.
Just curious, but how exactly do you quantify difficulty in a visual novel?
I think he means about how much you need to think of your choices to get the Good Ending. For exemple, Rin's route is a lot harder than Emi or Shizune.

My opinion: people don't hate Shizune. They hate Shizune's path. While she is my favorite character, I consider her path the "less good" of all, by far.

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scorptatious
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by scorptatious » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:28 pm

I personally find Shizune to be one of my favorite characters. (As you can tell by my avatar)

Although I can understand why some people hate her. Neither her personality nor her route are the kinds that appeal to everyone.
Last edited by scorptatious on Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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