Why the hate for Shizune ??

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rydiafan
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Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by rydiafan » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:14 am

Shizune seems like the most hated girl ( i find her the best looking and the one with the most real life traits ) but it seems ppl hate her with a passion .... so simple question ... Why ??

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alien.marksman
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by alien.marksman » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:34 am

I can't understand it either.
Sure at first impressions she's excessively Authoritative and Competitive to the point of Abrasiveness.
But once you (In the game) learn Sign Language, she become quite endearing. Well to me at least.

Get past the communication barrier Shizune is really not that much different to perhaps any of us here in the real world.
I'm not going to excuse her nature simply because of her upbringing, but it certainly explains it, and I can relate.
Not that the 'Jerk Dad' father figure in my upbringing was as obnoxious as Shizune's, but I could never do well enough in anything. (According to him)

and as Rydiafan said
I find her the best looking and the one with the most real life traits
I'd have to agree.
I always was a sucker for a girl with short dark hair, and glasses.
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encrypted12345
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by encrypted12345 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:48 am

While Shizune was my least favorite route (Mostly because her route was a bit too slice of life for me. Still enjoyed it though.), she's also closest to the type that I most envision a future long term relationship with. While I can see why people hate her bossiness, I honestly find her charismatic. That and since a lot of her route is nuanced, her character development tends to fly over people's head the first time around.

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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Synthus » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:56 am

Beyond what alien.marksman said, she's the hardest to get to know properly and her path doesn't go 'FEELS BUFFET'. I see her route as the thinking man's path (refer to all the threads with differing interpretations of plot elements), but that's just the elitist hipster in me speaking. :)

She's my favourite character too, but for reasons other than just appearance. Nothing wrong with that, mind, she's a solid 9 or 10 for me.

I always felt that Shizune was a complete character in her own right and never required any 'fixing' on the part of the protagonist. She grows organically on her own terms when she realises her own flaws. A (virtual) relationship with such a character feels more like a partnership of equals, and I consider that to be an important point in any relationship that I'd enter.

Her devotion to attainment of mastery and inciting enthusiasm and passion in others also speak to the slightly battered idealist in me, and I particularly liked how she invested the effort to get to know Hisao and draw him out of his shell. Screw drawing up diet and workout plans, try breaking a depressed near-hikkikomori out of his shell for an idea of what love is. The Hisao at the end of Shizune's route has also matured into something that could resemble adulthood if you squint a little, whereas the ones on other paths remain teenagers at worst and manchildren at best.

YMMV. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.

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alien.marksman
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by alien.marksman » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:03 am

Synthus wrote:Beyond what alien.marksman said, she's the hardest to get to know properly and her path doesn't go 'FEELS BUFFET'. I see her route as the thinking man's path (refer to all the threads with differing interpretations of plot elements), but that's just the elitist hipster in me speaking. :)

She's my favourite character too, but for reasons other than just appearance. Nothing wrong with that, mind, she's a solid 9 or 10 for me.

I always felt that Shizune was a complete character in her own right and never required any 'fixing' on the part of the protagonist. She grows organically on her own terms when she realises her own flaws. A (virtual) relationship with such a character feels more like a partnership of equals, and I consider that to be an important point in any relationship that I'd enter.

Her devotion to attainment of mastery and inciting enthusiasm and passion in others also speak to the slightly battered idealist in me, and I particularly liked how she invested the effort to get to know Hisao and draw him out of his shell. Screw drawing up diet and workout plans, try breaking a depressed near-hikkikomori out of his shell for an idea of what love is. The Hisao at the end of Shizune's route has also matured into something that could resemble adulthood if you squint a little, whereas the ones on other paths remain teenagers at worst and manchildren at best.

YMMV. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.
Could not have said it any better.
(Curse my lack of vocabulary and word smithing skills)
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Bigbishounen
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Bigbishounen » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:56 am

I personally chalk it up to a few different factors;

1) Shizune has a powerful personality. As noted by alien.marksman, she is strong and pushy almost to the point of abrasiveness, and that turns ALOT of people off. (some of us really have a thing for "tough chicks" though. That's why I chose Shizune's arc first.)

2) Secret "white knight" syndrome. Let's face it, we all want to be the hero. Riding in to rescue the damsel in distress is VERY appealing to many people for many very complex reasons. Shizune doesn't really NEED a white knight (not that any of them do, but it's the most easily apparent with her.) so the story is less appealing.

3) Lack of complexity. The story is actually pretty simple. Yes, the Misha love triangle throws a curve into the mix, but it's resolved pretty quickly and neatly at the end. Almost simplistically. This is more of an issue (I suspect) of the writer being less familiar with the subject, and just going for the most obvious solution.

4) Strong but underdeveloped characters. Jigoro CLEARLY has had a powerful influence in Shizune's life, but the story just barely touches on it. Much like Emi's unresolved issues surrounding the death of her father and her avoidance of the grieving process leading to relationship dysfunction, So Shizune's issues with her domineering and overbearing father should have been addressed more completely. Shizune's character REALLY needed a crisis moment with her father to really fill out the character and the storyline. Honestly the "fishing trip" could have included Jigoro and some kind of power boating accident or something along those lines where Jigoro is nearly killed or is seriously injured that would allow him to step back and reassess his life, thus allowing Shizune to connect with him and to begin to heal their relationship. The "Love Triangle" portion of the story could have still been included, but only as part of a "good ending" option where a healed and connected Shizune finally comes to terms with Misha's unrequited love for her and addresses it in an open and honest fashion, accepting Misha for who she is and working out their relationship in a healthy manner. This is "sort of" done in the existing good ending, but in a weaker fashion by having Hisao's love for Shizune open her up to this. This is not necissarily a bad approach, but it leaves alot of loose ends in the story.

5) Somewhat weak ending. This was my personal biggest issue with the Shizune storyline and I think what turns the most people off. Unlike the other Good Endings, Hisao doesn't end up "with" Shizune. Indeed, they seem to go their separate ways in an excited but indistinct manner. Hisao, for all his inner dialog about being more focused NEVER brings his life into focus other than to say he wants to continue to "chase" Shizune. What does this mean? We aren't told. Hisao doesn't "get the girl" in the way he does in the other storylines, and he doesn't really seem to be all that interested in doing so. Apparently a couple quick fucks and an unspecific promise to meet again in the future are enough for him, and it just seems to come out flat. Everyone is happy at the end, but the sweeping romance just isn't there. I think this is why many people seem to say that Shizune doesn't really HAVE a "Good" ending, just bad or neutral ones.

That said, I still really like the Shizune storyline, mostly because it IS realistic. Let's face it: Many relationships, particularly ones in High School, often are short lived and passionate, but not really deeply romantic. Many couples break up at the end of High School because they simply go their separate ways and grow apart. Particularly the ones that don't start until the senior year. There just isn't enough time to become that deeply involved with someone else, especially if both people have schedules as busy as Shizune and Hisao's. In those cases it's often more a case of simple "animal attraction" and a common interest that connects these couples, and they often break up as amicably as we see in Shizune's storyline; with a promise to stay in touch, but no real drive to stick together. This is very normal. I think many people were just hoping or expecting more of a deep romance. You just don't have that with the Shizune storyline.

6) Overall lack of focus and "wandering". Unlike many of the other story lines, where issues with the relationship or the female characters quickly take the fore, the Shizune storyline seems to wander around quite a bit, touching on many of the other character story lines and dealing less with Shizune's issues than Hisao's personal demons and the relationship confusion with Misha. The story spends quite a bit of time on Student Council activities, often to the exclusion of character building (did we really need to know how many stalls Hisao built?) Also, Hisao seems genuinely interested in Shizune early on, but doesn't pursue his interest nearly as vigorously as he should, until the letter from his ex arrives and brings him into focus. In many ways the "Shizune" story line is really a "Hisao" storyline as it is as much about his own healing as it is about Shizune's. This, and the love triangle with Misha cause the story to be necessarily broader with less focus on the romance between Hisao and Shizune.

Obviously those are alot of criticisms, and I don't want people to get the wrong idea and think I am bashing 4LS or the writers in any way. Every story, no matter how well written, is going to have weaknesses, or areas where readers will say "I wish 'X' was done differently". This is the nature of writing and is to be expected. However I think it is helpful to discuss these issues as it helps people understand why they may not take an immediate liking to the Shizune story line and perhaps enable them to go back and look again to appreciate it for what it is, rather than for what they had hoped it would be.

Ultimately, Shizune's story is a lighthearted fling with touches of angst from an unrequited love triangle between three good friends. I found it sweet and a nice way to lead into what is turning out to be much heavier fare with the other girls. It could have been more, but it works the way it is. And that's good enough.
Hisao: You want to know who I am? I'm the boy with the broken heart.

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Thrasher Thetic
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Thrasher Thetic » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:22 pm

Never miss a chance to post these.

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Dr. Robotnik
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Dr. Robotnik » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:46 pm

She turns everything into a game or gives everyone way too much work, and then gets mad at everyone who doesn't do everything the way that she does. Plus, she coldheartedly rejected Misha and is a total Bitch to Lilly for no reason. She's a selfish, apathetic character that I would want nothing to do with in real life.
Emibro, [Hanabro], [Lilly Lover], Rin Kin, Feminist, [Two-timer]

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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Synthus » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:25 pm

Bigbishounen, wouldn't attempting to resolve point 4 further contribute to point 6? As it is, I have a slightly different perspective on Jigoro's dickwaddish tendencies. His behaviour is typical for traditional Asian fathers.

I disagree with your general assessment of the relationship between Hisao and Shizune, but that may just be my head canon getting in the way. Will reply in more detail once I've gotten sleep.
Dr. Robotnik wrote:She turns everything into a game or gives everyone way too much work, and then gets mad at everyone who doesn't do everything the way that she does.
She has high expectations of her fellows and leads by example. It's not her bloody fault if they didn't tell her that they weren't interested in doing quite as much work as she does.
Dr. Robotnik wrote:Plus, she coldheartedly rejected Misha and is a total Bitch to Lilly for no reason.
How else do you turn down someone you weren't interested in as a partner but would like to retain as a friend?

And honestly, how nice are you to people that you've fallen out with?
Dr. Robotnik wrote:She's a selfish, apathetic character that I would want nothing to do with in real life.
:roll:

tl;dr: groundless gripes, it's called being human.

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:49 pm

Well, I don't "hate" her - not that hating fictional cahracters would mean anything in the first place - but in real life a person like Shizune is not someone I'd like to spend much time with, especially not in a romantic relationship. I might stomach working together with her for council work or class assignments, but I don't need my private life being made into a competition or watching my every word around my GF for fear of losing some - real or imagined - contest.
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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danyo
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by danyo » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:03 pm

Bigbishounen wrote:
1) Shizune has a powerful personality. As noted by alien.marksman, she is strong and pushy almost to the point of abrasiveness, and that turns ALOT of people off. (some of us really have a thing for "tough chicks" though. That's why I chose Shizune's arc first.)
This is pretty much the reason why I don't like her. I'm a very relaxed and laid back kinda guy, and I'd just not be able to become good friends with her. Like I said before though, I liked her route, and I don't hate shizune, it's just that it's a personality I wouldn't be able to coop with IRL.

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Rivan
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Rivan » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:10 pm

I don't really *hate* Shizune. I can appreciate her as a character. I'm capable of liking people who share some of her traits. However, when you put all these traits into a single person, it can get... annoying. Especially if this person also turns out to be a total hypocrite (Attacking Lilly every step of the way because she "seems to be unaware/ignore of how her action affects others", then breaking up with a boyfriend and cutting all ties to the closest friend because she needs a clear sheet), someone uncaring or having problems understanding how to honor the feelings of others (basically ignoring Hisao or treating him as a subordinate for large amount of time only to tie him up and "rape" him when the opportunity presents itself. Also, saying "no" to a girl's confession only to change that girl into her closest friend she happens to use as a megaphone.
What the hell, love interest? )

Honestly, when someone asks me whom I like least, I'm not going to say Misha just because I have trobles dealing with genki girls, especially since she also has a kinder/gentler/more understanding side (demonstrated in Emi and Hanako's routes, especially, assuming you'd interact with her), and her reasons for sudden personality switch turn out to be kind of complex and in direct opposition to some pain she suffered. Emi is similar, and also possesses the amount of determination greater than Shizune's without much of the bad baggage that comes with it in case of the dark haired girl, so it's not going to be her, either. Her circumstances are even more complicated.

Neither will it be any of the girls I really like (Hanako, Rin, Lilly, probably reverse order), so I guess that leaves me able to say without problems :
I like Shizune less than other girls we meet in the game.

It's nothing wrong. I'm not going to force Lilly confessions out of you all. I'm not going to come out and say "Only inhuman people would dislike Rin because they cannot understand her". I'm not going to say that you're all bastards because you cannot take care of Hanako.

So please accept my own tastes and not call it "hate". I'd be a lot meaner if I hated her.
Progress : Lilly - finished (Good ending), Hanako - finished (good ending), Rin - finished (Good ending), Shizune - finished (Bad ending), Emi - Finished (good ending)

Lilly=Rin > Hanako > Emi=Misha > Shizune

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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by Synthus » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:27 pm

I'm getting the feeling that some of you guys are interpreting Shizune's actions in the worst possible light. :/

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encrypted12345
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by encrypted12345 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:28 pm

Hmm... Maybe it's because I'm ISFJ and maybe because she reminds me of my cousin, but I really wouldn't mind a relationship with that type of person. It'll be annoying at times, but at the same time, it'll be fun. Shizune's definitely a good-hearted person. I could tell that from her Act one ending and even if she's a bit bitchy and intrusive, I won't change that evaluation.

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alien.marksman
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Re: Why the hate for Shizune ??

Post by alien.marksman » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:32 pm

encrypted12345 wrote:Hmm... Maybe it's because I'm ISFJ and maybe because she reminds me of my cousin
interesting..
I now wonder what Myers-Briggs personality type the characters of KS would be.

Perhaps a topic of discussion when I'm not so pressed for time..

Sorry derail over, please continue with original topic
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