Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

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Megumeru
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Megumeru » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:05 pm

WorldlyWiseman wrote:
Megumeru wrote:I'M BACK BEECHES!! :twisted:

and look at how much things I want to reply/shot down/crush. I blame Blizzard and Diablo III for this...


so, shall we continue or should we end this?
I....think it's about over. Girl 1 turns down girl 2 and thinks everything's okay because girl 2 doesn't say anything about it for years. Girl 1 can't hear girl 2 slowly breaking inside, and it just baffles everyone.

It turns out that everyone has their own way of handling the Friend Zone, some better than others.

The End.
What? I missed the party?

Damn it, I really should lay off Diablo III for awhile...
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
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Synthus
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Synthus » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:33 pm

Pickman's Model wrote:
I think he ment that I'm seeing things from Misha's POV (in that I would want a more obvious indication of what to do. Shizune telling Misha that she wanted her around, immediately after rejecting her, sends a bit of a mixed message), while you're more like Shizune (thinking that it was mostly Misha's fault for possibly misinterpreting what she said, and desperately waiting for her to come around). I honestly don't think one is more legit than the other; it's just a difference of opinion.
Yep, pretty much what I meant. You were saying that it was damn near impossible to continue a friendship without awkwardness under these circumstances, whereas nemz insisted that it was eminently possible.

Also, emphasis on the bolded part.

MuDstravaga
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by MuDstravaga » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:16 am

I have to agree with OP, mostly cause tears are pouring down my face as I read this, I haven't been hit so hard but any type of fiction before and I'll likely be crying myself to bed tonight.

What really gets me about this scene is the doll that he win for her. Its kinda a symbol of his love for her and she doesn't want to forget about it. She want to carry the though of him through her life.

Also i agree with what was said that this entire time you have seen her with this strong shell, very strong willed woman charging her way through life. But this is the one moment where her entire powerful persona is just ripped down and you get to see her broken down deep inside...

And it just hurts...

Another thing... what the general consensus, did she find out that he was cheating on her, and how did she find out?


So im too lazy to pick apart spoilers so im gonna tag the whole thing, also this is my first time ever posting to a forum so im not used to formatting.

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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:17 pm

MuDstravaga wrote:So im too lazy to pick apart spoilers so im gonna tag the whole thing, also this is my first time ever posting to a forum so im not used to formatting.
First time, eh? Well, for your first lesson, I suggest you google "What is necroing?"
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by brythain » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:13 am

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
MuDstravaga wrote:So im too lazy to pick apart spoilers so im gonna tag the whole thing, also this is my first time ever posting to a forum so im not used to formatting.
First time, eh? Well, for your first lesson, I suggest you google "What is necroing?"
Perhaps what's more important is the sixth point under 'Good posting means...' in this thread.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:50 am

Also I don't think you need to worry about spoilers four years after KS was released.

And anyone who clicks on a thread named "Venting about Shizune's Bad ending" and complains about being spoiled afterwards should take a mandatory crashcourse in "the internet" :lol:
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by kimono » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:45 pm

To be fair, if he necroposted it means at at least he searched if there was a similar post opened, which it's cool. He could have been worse :mrgreen:

And now that this post is kind of bumped I should agree that Shizune's bad ending is one of the worst of the entire game (and the bad games of this game are HORRIBLE. In the good way, of course). I am too late to see the replies, but I never understood why people were so angry about that the bad ending has many similar scenes with the good ending... that's precisely the point!
Routes: Lily>Rin>Hanako>Emi>Shizune

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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by mademan2 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:10 pm

Heya, I recently finished Shizune's bad ending as well, so I thought, I would post my feelings here as well, since this seems like the right spot, even tho it's been abandonded for some time :D

Honestly, altogether I liked Shizune's path the least and deliberately went for comforting Misha, first off, I honestly did not expect that to lead to sex right away, even if it does seem like a trend with the game (Hanako sex scene anyone? OMG, serously Hisao, girls kisses or whatever and you jump her bones instantly). And secondly at that point, like throughout the whole story pretty much, I was way more interested in Misha. At first I also actually thought that the "big issue" was that their friendship was breaking because Misha had feelings for Hisao as well and felt like a bad friend for that.

In general, I have to admit I simply did not get this route, it seemed like everything was ok (not normal, just not totally wrong yet) throughout the whole thing and than suddenly you had sex with Misha and that made things go bad, even tho that itself was never the problem.

I probably watch too much simple american comedies, so that I need to be spoon-fed the actual issue of the story, but aside for Shizune having a stick up her butt and being weird about it, I did not notice any conflict whatsoever.

For me the main problem was Shizune herself. At first i was very intrigued by her, I actually did not at all care for Misha or her avatar (strange that it ended up the other way around in the end) and liked Shizune for being proactive and interested in helping you, most people enjoy being a center of someone's attention and being the roleplayer I am, I enjoyed it and liked Shizune for it. Even her competitive side was endearing at the start and in general, first act and most of second act was just fine.

When it went wrong for me was the holiday at Shizune's house, before that I have ignored that even tho they officialy started their relationship, they have not even kissed, but when the holiday came i suddenly realized there was no relationship to speak of. To my knowledge nobody knew about it, it was never admited anywhere and Shizune even introduced you as friend at her household, if that is not a slap in the face, than I do not know what is, sure they dated only a while, but why take him if you don't want to get into that ... She ends up spending most of her time with Misha, which in itself is not bad, but not knowing that Misha likes her, makes her seem that she is just ignoring you, and I still belive that for some part she was, she just is not a lovy-dovy person, I get that, but why she would not invite you to come with at least, I do not understand. Than the weird sex scene, I mean cmon, if this VN is supposed to show that disabled people are just people, why are they all behaving like weirdos, even if it's completely unnecessary. I get that she wanted to "quiet him down", but damn, what kind of a first sex is that, without any foreplay or even kissing first, and than she goes on ignoring him. Leaving Hisao with her jerk of a father (what a douche) and never even apologizing or standing up for him against her father (again, I try to understand, Japanese customs and stuff prohibit her from speaking against him openly and such, but he was the first one to go against every expected curtesy from a host).

It was at this point where I was very much pissed at her and at Hisao for being ok with this, he thought it weird that she doesnt speak with him but never brought it up... I mean HOW?! How do you not?! After that just happened... While in other routes Hisao is a jerk or a stupid person, I could at least try and see things from his point of view (for example I actually agreed with him in Rin's route, no matter how much I like her, I was just as confused as him and felt his actions justified to some extent). But here I just didnt get it, why exactly where they dating again? Why exactly he liked her? Because she was competitive and hard working in the student councel...? Is that enough?

And than the "big issue" arc came and it turned out to be issue mostly between her and Misha. There was no big issue and the issues that I had with their relationship and her treatment of just about everything and everybody was never brought up or discussed (ok at the end she admits that she may have been a bad girlfriend, damn right)

So hell yea, I'd like to think that Misha came to Hisao because she kinda liked him as well and some of their conversations later on made me thing it's actually possible as well, even they would never admit it or talk about it, since they both felt ashamed (I read pretty much all posts here, some of them clarified some things and were helpful, thanks ^^) But he was already with Shizune and instead of thinking about why he did it (even tho he really did not have to, you can comfort people without immediately taking their clothes off Hisao) Same went for Misha, she was thinking about how guilty she was and how much this would hurt Shizune instead of why she did it. I choose to belive it was because she was confused and sad and a little bit angry, but also because she liked Hisao, not because she wanted to be closer to Shizune in some twisted way.

And than Misha ignore Shizune and than Shizune ignores Misha, for reasons that are still beyond me. Misha is in love with her and probably feels like a third weel and that is why these feelings are resurfacing, with Hisao around, but they were at a stalemate for years and I just honestly don't understand why is this a thing, this must have been discussed between the two of them at least on one occasion.

So the wheel of ignoring continues, to that add the infidelity which in my eyes was caused by Shizune, just as much as Hisao and Misha and everything ends up unresolved and at a dead spot, with everyone feeling guilty, sad, unsure about their ways and stuff.

And when the bad ending came I was just thinking, whether she knows or not, this relationship was just awful and deserves to end, they were in a platonic relationship for the most part anyways and why that is is never said, not really (yea i know Shizune atracts people and than pushes them away, why tho?)

There was never any real conflict to be had if they just spoke to each other, actually confronted things together and sorted them out, but that was never possible mostly of because how Shizune simply is. She always has her way, disregarding people's feelings a lot, and is way too focused on the student council projects, it actually made me mad, how often that was simply all that was happening.

Like I said, I probably didn't get this route at all, but except for Hisao cheating on Shizune (which is of course despicable) and him being placant the whole time, even through things where any normal person would open their mouth, it was all on Shizune. Her inability to adapt and explain stuff, her always keeping Misha around even if it must be painful for her. Her simply being a crapy friend and girlfriend.

Generally I dislike Shizune, sorry to those who like her ^^ feel free to enlighten me.

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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:06 pm

mademan2 wrote:Heya, I recently finished Shizune's bad ending as well, so I thought, I would post my feelings here as well, since this seems like the right spot, even tho it's been abandonded for some time :D

(snip)

Generally I dislike Shizune, sorry to those who like her ^^ feel free to enlighten me.
Always a joy to get a notification from the old KS forums.

In any case, it's been too long since I played any of the arcs for me to discuss them in detail, but I remember really adoring the entirety of the Shizune route in retrospect. There are a lot of small subtleties, and the game doesn't feel the need to explicitly explain what each and every character is feeling, forcing you to either seriously consider it or just stumble through the route without thinking at all. Which is of course much more realistic than the alternative; it's relatively rare for people to open up and spill the beans on their entire emotional state to anyone other than a therapist. And in my opinion that realism makes both the bad and good ends have that much more impact.

That said, I'm not a big fan of Shizune herself. She's a great character but I probably wouldn't gravitate towards her (of my own free will, anyway).
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Hellcat » Mon May 02, 2016 5:53 pm

Yeah, It's quite possibly the one that made me angry the most. It's just Hisao's nonchalant attitude towards the situation and how it all fell apart. "I see you are broken inside and it's all my fault.....Oh well, see you in class! : DDDDDDD" He doesn't have the guts to even tell Shizune that he slept with Misha behind her back. It's basically the ending where he goes in, destroys the friendship between them both and walks away without a care in the world.

The only ending that actually made me want to punch Hisao, like, what are you doing? I knew it was going to make me angry from the get go, though. I only did the comfort option for 100% otherwise i could have quite happily ignored it.
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Oddball » Sun May 08, 2016 4:50 pm

I've always thought the point of bad ending Hisao was that he became a bit too much like Shizune. Lilly even highlights this in their conversation.

The whole
"I see you are broken inside and it's all my fault.....Oh well, see you in class!
was very much what Shizune has been doing to Misha for at least a year. He simply took her view of being able to separate everything into it's own little boxes. "Sleeping with Misha will solve Misha's problem and it won't affect anything else in my life!" He just realized that it didn't work for him, and in the good ending Shizune realizes that things don't work that way either.
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Hellcat » Sun May 08, 2016 9:48 pm

Oddball wrote:I've always thought the point of bad ending Hisao was that he became a bit too much like Shizune. Lilly even highlights this in their conversation.

The whole
"I see you are broken inside and it's all my fault.....Oh well, see you in class!
was very much what Shizune has been doing to Misha for at least a year. He simply took her view of being able to separate everything into it's own little boxes. "Sleeping with Misha will solve Misha's problem and it won't affect anything else in my life!" He just realized that it didn't work for him, and in the good ending Shizune realizes that things don't work that way either.
I think The thing that makes Shizune's situation a bit different though and i know it's obvious but.....Shizune isn't gay. There isn't any real way to fix Misha's problems because they stem from her love for Shizune, only she, in the end, can fix that. I don't really like to draw parallel's but i have been in Shizune's situation and i have dealt with friends who have been in Misha's situation. I think the realism of the route and sharing a few personality traits with Shizune is what really attracted me to Shizune's story...but anyway-

It always seems that no matter how much i tell close friends who are gay "You need to move on, he's straight. He can't ever feel that way" they just can't help it. (I say it with far more tact than this, of course). I know loving someone who doesn't feel the same way is one of the worst feelings in the world and you can't just stop loving someone...but one day, it's something people in that predicament have to accept.

The problem with Misha and Shizune is that Shizune already told Misha she doesn't feel that way long before Misha even dyed her hair, that really should have been the moving point but Misha stuck around for the wrong reasons hoping Shizune would change and Shizune still wants to keep her friend because she's always with her and they do things together and for so many other reasons. Shizune wants to fix her problems but genuinely believe it's more out wanting to help her as a friend.

However, I have no idea where Hisao was going with the whole sleeping with Misha stuff. At that age, i and probably everyone else knew better than that. Maybe you are right though, maybe Hisao genuinely took on Shizune's way of handling things and ended up misguided. Different route i know but in Rin's route Hisao is still trying to find himself there, too. "I want to be like Emi" or "I want to be more like Rin". It's not out of the realms of possibility he felt similar here and took on Shizune's view.


Personally i found the whole Shizune route pretty self destructive, they all seemed to doing things for all the wrong reasons...and when that all collapsed, they rebuilt from there. It was nice to see Misha actually move on in the good endbut yeah, Interesting outlook, Oddball, made me think on that a lot and thus, had a lot of fun typing up my own outlook on the matter.
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Ryusashi » Fri May 13, 2016 1:06 am

After being gone from the boards for awhile (work, games, and writings), i figured id come back and read some post. (since im too lazy to go through 12ish pages of posts) i figured i would give my thoughts on Shizunes route.

Firstly, let's look at Shizunes personality: competitive, genius, calculating, and over-achiever. That is the best and worst combination when you think about it, exemplified in the endings. With her good ending, her, hisao, and misha throw their arms up to challenge the future and make it brighter (my interpretation anyways) and that the trio will remain friends/lovers until they get old (because they are challenging themselves as well since shizune rubbed off on them). With her bad ending however, you see her genius and calculating side. she realizes that she was just pushing people away and wants to change herself so she becomes a better person, and thus needs a new slate, since she knows she messed up and wants to fix herself before she fixs her relationships (since she blames herself). The worst part, theoretically, she might consider suicide for the pain she inflicted on those she love since she hates losing and to her that could be a loss.

Secondly, her diverging events that seem pretty much the same. You find out that she was easedropping on the rooftop event with hisao and misha. If i'm remembering correctly, she can lip read (or at least can somewhat). What if she read Hisao's line where he said "i made a terrible mistake" or something along those lines? even if it was just the side of his lips that could be just enough to read his lips. IF she saw that, she might have put 2 and 2 together. "he's been avoiding me because he cheated. if he cheated, then i must be a horrible girlfriend... i guess i really am overly competative and he..... he must not love me anymore..." since all we can do is speculate (unless the author posted in here.... in which case oops...). You can sort of notice she is more distant afterwards as well (or she did to me) so anything is possible since we cant tell what was said during misha/shizunes argument. Now, she does say [I feel like im losing a lot of people close to me, lately], and she does say what she would normally say to get everyone to go together, so that might be part of the breaking point for shizune. "he's distancing himself, and he lied when saying nothing was wrong, and now i know he regrets something that happened between him and misha..." where as if you go with her "maybe im overthinking things. it will all work out eventually." In spiral, she says [apparently, im easier to read that i'd thought. i was trying hard to hide it. can you tell what im thinking right now?] right after you say "you look upset. whats wrong?" and the first thing she says when you reach where she wants to talk is [there is a saying. 'you dont know how much you've screwed up until you've screwed up.'] this could be shizune just saying "i realized i messed up and want to admit i messed up." but it could also be her saying "i know you messed up, and it made me realize just how bad i messed up.". she then says [When i feel like im finished, i wish i could just wipe the slate clean. whether i succeed or not. i push misha through a lot, and even dragged you into it. and every point where i could have solved this silly situation, or prevent it from happening in the first place, keeps coming back to me] why did she say "silly situation"? id call that a major situation, unless i knew more than i was letting on. again, speculation. everything shizune says is calculated, so you really have to look deep into what she's saying (no where near as much as rin, who after completing twice, i still dont fully understand....)

sorry for the long spiel.... i havent been on the boards in awhile.
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Oddball » Fri May 13, 2016 7:06 am

Secondly, her diverging events that seem pretty much the same. You find out that she was easedropping on the rooftop event with hisao and misha. If i'm remembering correctly, she can lip read (or at least can somewhat). What if she read Hisao's line where he said "i made a terrible mistake" or something along those lines? even if it was just the side of his lips that could be just enough to read his lips.
It never says she can read lips. Even if she could, it's avery hard skill even for somebody really well practiced. You need to be looking directly at the person to even have a chance at an accurate read.
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Re: Venting about Shizune's Bad ending...

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Fri May 13, 2016 7:30 pm

Oddball wrote:
Secondly, her diverging events that seem pretty much the same. You find out that she was easedropping on the rooftop event with hisao and misha. If i'm remembering correctly, she can lip read (or at least can somewhat). What if she read Hisao's line where he said "i made a terrible mistake" or something along those lines? even if it was just the side of his lips that could be just enough to read his lips.
It never says she can read lips. Even if she could, it's avery hard skill even for somebody really well practiced. You need to be looking directly at the person to even have a chance at an accurate read.
I'm 95% sure I remember Shizune being able to lip-read.
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

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