Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

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encrypted12345
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by encrypted12345 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:29 am

Natsuki wrote:I enjoyed Shizunes route, but there are a couple of things that's I'm not too crazy about.

1- Misha's problems came out of no where, she was cheery one minute and the next, bam. it would be nice if there was some short of hint there even though the problem happened way before Hisao came.

2- Shizune didn't really seem like his girlfriend at all. you would think that she would show some affection to show that she loved him, besides the sex scenes.

3- I wasn't too crazy about the nutreual(sp) ending. the picture was cute though. it also would've been nice if the ending showed them wanting to be together after highschool or something.

Also a side note, I really would've loved a Misha path. Perky people scare me, but I just love Misha. lol.

those are my problems. otherwise I really enjoyed it.
Read this thread. That'll help clear up your complaints. Anyways, I'll just give you my opinion.

1. There were subtle hints. I haven't reread the route to check them all but I remember in Act 2 that she flinched when Hisao was learning sign language and he mentioned that maybe he wouldn't need to rely on Misha anymore. That and the hair cut in Act 3. There's probably more, but I need to replay the route to get all the nuances.

2. What they had was definitely love. It was nuanced and only implied though the tiniest of gestures (being playful with him and such.) For me, the sheer depth of it clicked after I saw the bad ending and the reasons for it. Even before that though, I could sense it. Probably through all the practice I got from analyzing Rance's nuanced character development in the comedy rape scenes. :lol: It's not your fault if you couldn't see it.

3. It's spelled neutral for future reference :wink:.

KFKenobi
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by KFKenobi » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:42 am

encrypted12345 wrote:The Shizune route set up was long, but it was a conflict that needed time to develop since three characters had to undergo significant amounts of characterization (Hisao, Misha, and Shizune) instead of two (Hisao and the Heroine).
Be that as it may, there were places where at least 9 "clicks" of text were used when 3 would have been just as good, if not better. If this were a print novel, I'd suspect them of padding the word count to please publishers. Conventional publishers prefer fat books because they control the distribution and can charge more for larger books. This is often done at the expense of readability, rather than for the sake of telling a more comprehensive story.

I sometimes worry that other writers are following this example without understanding that it's being done for cynical commercial reasons rather than artistic.

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Natsuki
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by Natsuki » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:55 am

encrypted12345 wrote: Read this thread. That'll help clear up your complaints. Anyways, I'll just give you my opinion.

1. There were subtle hints. I haven't reread the route to check them all but I remember in Act 2 that she flinched when Hisao was learning sign language and he mentioned that maybe he wouldn't need to rely on Misha anymore. That and the hair cut in Act 3. There's probably more, but I need to replay the route to get all the nuances.

2. What they had was definitely love. It was nuanced and only implied though the tiniest of gestures (being playful with him and such.) For me, the sheer depth of it clicked after I saw the bad ending and the reasons for it. Even before that though, I could sense it. Probably through all the practice I got from analyzing Rance's nuanced character development in the comedy rape scenes. :lol: It's not your fault if you couldn't see it.

3. It's spelled neutral for future reference :wink:.
Thanks for your opinions and the spelling for Neutral. I'll take a read through this thread when I get the chance and replay her route again to see what you were saying.
Jikkan ni kaeru no yo! BAKA! BAAKAA!! BAAAAKAAA!!!
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encrypted12345
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by encrypted12345 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:08 am

KFKenobi wrote:Be that as it may, there were places where at least 9 "clicks" of text were used when 3 would have been just as good, if not better. If this were a print novel, I'd suspect them of padding the word count to please publishers. Conventional publishers prefer fat books because they control the distribution and can charge more for larger books. This is often done at the expense of readability, rather than for the sake of telling a more comprehensive story.

I sometimes worry that other writers are following this example without understanding that it's being done for cynical commercial reasons rather than artistic.
That's really just the way slice-of-life stories are. Not every line is filled with meaning and a lot of the dialogue is more for the sake of building a calming, peaceful, everyday atmosphere than for obvious plot or character development. It's a genre not everyone likes and for good reason. It still has a substantial amount of fans though, so it's not that crazy to purposely do for artistic reasons.

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by KFKenobi » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:41 am

encrypted12345 wrote:
KFKenobi wrote:Be that as it may, there were places where at least 9 "clicks" of text were used when 3 would have been just as good, if not better. If this were a print novel, I'd suspect them of padding the word count to please publishers. Conventional publishers prefer fat books because they control the distribution and can charge more for larger books. This is often done at the expense of readability, rather than for the sake of telling a more comprehensive story.

I sometimes worry that other writers are following this example without understanding that it's being done for cynical commercial reasons rather than artistic.
That's really just the way slice-of-life stories are. Not every line is filled with meaning and a lot of the dialogue is more for the sake of building a calming, peaceful, everyday atmosphere than for obvious plot or character development. It's a genre not everyone likes and for good reason. It still has a substantial amount of fans though, so it's not that crazy to purposely do for artistic reasons.
I... I just don't know. My background as an artist gives me a strong, STRONG, aversion to attributing to style when something strikes me as not-quite-right. That same background leaves a lot of room for open mindedness, but my reserve of 'benefit of the doubt' runs low here. It doesn't help that I'm not ignorant to slice of slice stories.

If that means I'm off base, so be it. I know it's asking a lot, but if you try to see this from my angle, you might understand why I'm reluctant to see it from yours.

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:43 am

I liked it just fine, but it was a little slower paced than the other paths I've played so far (haven't done Rin's or Emi's yet, they're coming up next). And while she's nowhere near my favorite (cough, Lilly, cough), Shizune's character is really fascinating.
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by Radien » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:38 am

I am still in the middle of Shizune's path, so I am hesitant to read this entire thread because "omg spoilerz," but I wanted to voice my thoughts so far:

At first, I didn't like talking with Shizune and Misha, but I didn't know why. I am used to the "tsundere" archetype, so I figured that Shizune would end up having a more personable side to her that would emerge as the story went on, but something about how the two handled everything was really bugging me.

Then I realized that it was entirely Misha who was putting me on edge. Her bombastic way of voicing everything Shizune signed always turned it into a much more aggressive conversation. Also, it was obvious from the start that there was something artificial about Misha's behavior, much like her pink hair. I began looking forward to Hisao learning sign language so Misha could be shooed out of there.

But as it turns out, Shizune's path is just as much about Misha as it is about Shizune, or almost as much, at least. Once Misha's artificial exterior started peeling away, I began to enjoy the story more and more. Good storytelling can take a character with flaws and make her sympathetic by showing how she got that way step-by-step. Even if you aren't the same sort of person as the character, good writing can make you empathize just the same.

I'm not yet done with the story, and Jigoro still bothers me immensely... but her gender-jumbled brother shows promise, and the story has had more twists and turns than Emi's or Hanako's, and that's quite a lot. It's a long path, but I'm interested to see where it ends.

And after I'm done, I'll go see what happens if you stray in Misha's direction, although I really don't think that choice is a gentlemanly option at all. I won't be surprised if it produces a "bad ending."
Paths completed so far (in order): Emi, Hanako, Shizune, Lilly (good endings)

Currently playing: Rin's path

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by Bigbishounen » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:07 am

Pl4t0 wrote:Also, if you're pining for a more concrete, happy ending I think you'll really like this epilogue: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/650003-k ... o/61603960

Oh dude...

That was a PERFECT ending for Shizune's arc! Man, if 4LS decides to do an expansion pack or additional media pack, this has GOT to be added to Shizune's route. Copied off website, saved into word doc using comic sans font.
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metalangel
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by metalangel » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:15 am

Bigbishounen wrote: That was a PERFECT ending for Shizune's arc! Man, if 4LS decides to do an expansion pack or additional media pack, this has GOT to be added to Shizune's route. Copied off website, saved into word doc using comic sans font.
TBH, I think I prefer Weekend At Hisao's (search for it on here) but as a short sweet conclusion, that's pretty good too. Heck, you could almost fit them together if you wanted to with a few minor alterations.

I am working on adapting that little story into an animated thing, getting the artwork done atm, check out my sig for the thread.

Radien wrote:I am still in the middle of Shizune's path, so I am hesitant to read this entire thread because "omg spoilerz," but I wanted to voice my thoughts so far:

At first, I didn't like talking with Shizune and Misha, but I didn't know why. I am used to the "tsundere" archetype, so I figured that Shizune would end up having a more personable side to her that would emerge as the story went on, but something about how the two handled everything was really bugging me.

Then I realized that it was entirely Misha who was putting me on edge. Her bombastic way of voicing everything Shizune signed always turned it into a much more aggressive conversation. Also, it was obvious from the start that there was something artificial about Misha's behavior, much like her pink hair. I began looking forward to Hisao learning sign language so Misha could be shooed out of there.
Much better once Hisao can sign and you don't have everything Shizune says punctuated by WAHAHA, isn't it?

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by Pl4t0 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:20 pm

metalangel wrote:TBH, I think I prefer Weekend At Hisao's (search for it on here) but as a short sweet conclusion, that's pretty good too. Heck, you could almost fit them together if you wanted to with a few minor alterations.
themocaw is easily one of the most respectable writers on these forums, his Shizune epilogue is equally as brilliant as the one I linked, if not moreso.

The coolest part, however, is that they work just as well in conjunction. You don't have to pick between them, the original anonymous epilogue is sort of the epilogue to themocaw's epilogue...if that makes any sense.

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by bradpara » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:47 pm

encrypted12345 wrote:1. There were subtle hints. I haven't reread the route to check them all but I remember in Act 2 that she flinched when Hisao was learning sign language and he mentioned that maybe he wouldn't need to rely on Misha anymore. That and the hair cut in Act 3. There's probably more, but I need to replay the route to get all the nuances.

2. What they had was definitely love. It was nuanced and only implied though the tiniest of gestures (being playful with him and such.) For me, the sheer depth of it clicked after I saw the bad ending and the reasons for it. Even before that though, I could sense it. Probably through all the practice I got from analyzing Rance's nuanced character development in the comedy rape scenes. :lol: It's not your fault if you couldn't see it.
Yes, this is a story that requires you to pay attention to the little things for you truely get. My second play through had me going back in the Text History few times to re read dialouge just to make sure that I got everything.

Sadly, not many people are willing to do that, either because Shizune her self can come across as a little "strong" for some and the combination of her rivalry with Lilly and people being disappointed over the lack of a Misha route means that she also gets Die for Our Ship flack from two fronts meaning alot of people don't like her route because the don't want to like it.
Shizune=Hanako>Lilly>Emi=Rin
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Mysterious Stranger
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by Mysterious Stranger » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:49 pm

bradpara wrote:Sadly, not many people are willing to do that, either because Shizune her self can come across as a little "strong" for some and the combination of her rivalry with Lilly and people being disappointed over the lack of a Misha route means that she also gets Die for Our Ship flack from two fronts meaning alot of people don't like her route because the don't want to like it.
That actually sums everything up rather nicely. I'll readily admit that my love for Lilly and Misha (and Hanako, to a lesser extent) get in the way of my ability to really empathize with Shizune, despite having replayed both of her endings recently. Which isn't to say that both endings aren't wonderful and didn't make me tear up/sob uncontrollably (they are and did), but it's for those reasons that Shizune herself doesn't rank very high in my book. And that's almost certainly the case with many others, as you mentioned.
| Can you see what I see? | To the end of the Waltz... | First stop, Nagoya! | Oh, come, lovely child! | To the World of Dreams | Pray to become starry sky tomorrow... | Please... forget about me... | No music, no future |

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metalangel
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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by metalangel » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:44 pm

Pl4t0 wrote:
metalangel wrote:TBH, I think I prefer Weekend At Hisao's (search for it on here) but as a short sweet conclusion, that's pretty good too. Heck, you could almost fit them together if you wanted to with a few minor alterations.
themocaw is easily one of the most respectable writers on these forums, his Shizune epilogue is equally as brilliant as the one I linked, if not moreso.

The coolest part, however, is that they work just as well in conjunction. You don't have to pick between them, the original anonymous epilogue is sort of the epilogue to themocaw's epilogue...if that makes any sense.
I agree.

About the only thing you'd have to alter slightly is Misha's surprise at them being back with a baby, and Hisao's at Misha being a teacher at Yamaku. Though I suppose for both of those it stands to reason that after their wedding Hisao, Misha and Shizune all busied themselves starting their careers and so might have not written enough emails as they used to.

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by DeleV » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:52 pm

bradpara wrote:Sadly, not many people are willing to do that, either because Shizune her self can come across as a little "strong" for some and the combination of her rivalry with Lilly and people being disappointed over the lack of a Misha route means that she also gets Die for Our Ship flack from two fronts meaning alot of people don't like her route because the don't want to like it.
I have a theory that's based on the age poll. I think the low average age contributes to the low(er) appreciation of Shizune's story. To read between the lines more and allow yourself to see the deeper message requires a different state of mind. I don't think I had when I was 20. Too much going going on back then. I fact, I don't think I did much reflection on stories till my late twenties.

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Re: Am I the only one that enjoyed Shizune's route?

Post by bradpara » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:14 pm

DeleV wrote:
bradpara wrote:Sadly, not many people are willing to do that, either because Shizune her self can come across as a little "strong" for some and the combination of her rivalry with Lilly and people being disappointed over the lack of a Misha route means that she also gets Die for Our Ship flack from two fronts meaning alot of people don't like her route because the don't want to like it.
I have a theory that's based on the age poll. I think the low average age contributes to the low(er) appreciation of Shizune's story. To read between the lines more and allow yourself to see the deeper message requires a different state of mind. I don't think I had when I was 20. Too much going going on back then. I fact, I don't think I did much reflection on stories till my late twenties.
You might be on to something, I am 31 right now and shall be 32 in April. Which means that part of me tends to write off the full Lilly and Shizune feud as just an adolescent spat that that two shall eventually grow out of. (Which is Akira's view of the situation) and also part of why I think much of Shizune's attitude as "cute". That and that fact some of the better KS fics have been Shizune stories mean that I wouldn't be suprised if Shizune fans turned out to be a little older on average than the fandom as a whole.
Shizune=Hanako>Lilly>Emi=Rin
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