Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters
Post Reply
User avatar
Rolanberry
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:10 pm

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Rolanberry » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:45 am

Merlyn_LeRoy wrote:
Harlequin13 wrote:A character with actual schizophrenia that you PLAY AS... Now that would be something weird to try and write. The inner monologue of a schizofrenic, yea.
"schizophrenia most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood."
work.jpg
I'd vote for auditory hallucinations (hearing voices), which I think is a common type. The voices could be a weird counterpoint to the MC's thoughts and feelings.
Actually...it really could work. After reading this I thought of the Anime Afro Samurai. The Samurai has a Ninja friend...who is not real. Though the Samurai is very much so stoic and 'bad ass' the Ninja is a joker and makes observations of things, and in essence notices things that the Samurai does and 'doesn't' Notice.

This would actually be a pretty good gameplay wise and make it different from KS in that the protagonist would have a 'buddy' along with his own observations. It adds alot more creativity in what you can do fer certain scenes and character growth (H-scenes come to mind, since the protag would want some alone time from some 'one' he's basically attached to all the time and is always with )

Ockbald
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:11 am

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Ockbald » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:46 am

laamentio wrote:
Ockbald wrote: Very well I share a similar feeling.

However do you think it would be adequate the name you proposed? KS got some bad press because of it's name, even if it did attract several fans over the net. Though I don't mind either way.
Katawa shoujo had bad press for everything. The name, the topic, the relation with 4chan, the H content, being a VN.
I didn't like the name proposed, but I don't think that the name will define the success or not of this product (if is ever released). The problem itself could be that this work is a kind of spin off of the KS.
That's like the Damocles' sword over this project.
Hence why I wanted it to be different. I'm all up for taking KS and do something inspired by it, but making a VN about mental disabled girls in a special school where there are 5 of them and you just got around one of them and their conflict past and personality feels like going through the motions and a disservice to everbody who played KS.

I will try to give my support to the project and help it become it's own thing. However if consensus reaches "Let's just do what they did" I'm afraid I can't do much.

User avatar
Carnificus
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:22 am
Location: Florida

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Carnificus » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:44 am

The Local Hentai wrote:I think it would feel wrong. Especially if there are some hardcore h scenes in it. Because KS does have physically disabled girls in it, mentally they are pretty much sane. Dating a girl with a mental disability would lead me to question if she's actually all together to understand what's happening to her and what she is doing with me.

Reminds me of those fucked up videos with people working at a facility for the mentally infirm, beating up on the patients. They were just crying but not really doing anything. Watching it felt wrong, I think it would give me the same feeling.
I think it's because of this that we'd have to tread lightly on what conditions are given to the different girls in the story. Not all mental disorders would impair a person to the point that you couldn't date them, or have sex with them. And I think it's because of this that Honeymuffin suggested we don't involve characters who suffer from mental retardation or involve rape in their past storyline.
Honeymuffin wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to capture KS' emotional impact. If Mentaru Shoujo turns out to be different from KS in every other aspect I will still be satisfied, but emotional impact and respectful treatment of the characters are my highest priorities. I suppose it would also be nice to uphold the standards of writing/art/musical quality that KS set as well, but that is secondary to my first point. All other aspects of KS, such as game structure/setting/interface matter very little to me in terms of preserving them in MS.

My comrades may feel differently. This is fine; we'll hash out those details as they come up on our forums.
I kind of feel like you have to maintain something similar to KS in terms of the quality of music/writing/art to get the same emotional impact though. Obviously it doesn't have to be just as good or better in every case, but if KS had really lacked any of those qualities I don't feel like it would have had near the emotional impact that it did. And obviously while writing should be very well done I don't think music should be pushed off to the side, good music can really make or break a VN imo. I mean just look at the forums on here and you can see how much of an impact the music from KS has had on people, it's really not something that can be ignored.
"Stories never begin nor do they end. They are comprised of people living, an endless cycle of interacting, influencing each other, and parting ways. As long as stories are told they shall not have clear endings." -Vice President Gustav St. Germain

User avatar
alabaster
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:37 am
Contact:

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by alabaster » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:03 am

Ockbald wrote:Hence why I wanted it to be different. I'm all up for taking KS and do something inspired by it, but making a VN about mental disabled girls in a special school where there are 5 of them and you just got around one of them and their conflict past and personality feels like going through the motions and a disservice to everbody who played KS.

I will try to give my support to the project and help it become it's own thing. However if consensus reaches "Let's just do what they did" I'm afraid I can't do much.
I share your sentiments. Trying to imitate KS is the worst way to go, but you also have to expect that a VN spawned directly from the aftermath of KS is going to resemble it to some degree, especially just as it's getting off the ground.

The problem with saying, "Okay, this is looking too much like KS. What can we do you make it different?" is that you then are changing out elements in an effort to superficially not seem like a KS clone. You'll be making artistic choices on the basis of "Well, they did it that way; so let's do it this way." You're still basing the process on KS, but in a different way, and I don't see this as any better than straight-up ripping KS off.

What needs to happen is for the project to evolve naturally and develop a life of its own. I've committed to helping out because I think there's some promise in it, and while the beginning stages look an awful lot like KS, I think now that we have an idea, we need to see where it goes from here. Who knows what the final product will look like, if there even is one.

QbertEnhanced
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:58 pm

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by QbertEnhanced » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:29 am

I think that the most important thing to capture from KS was the aspect of these girls being human beings. We could just as much do it with any other set of girls, but for the sake of challenge picked those with mental disabilities. I think part of the reason KS has hit the internet so hard, is that it more or less ignores disability. I think there's many more stories to tell in this vein and theme. I think that a true successor need only carry the message that we all can be loved, and that we're all human beings.

User avatar
imperial.standard
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:37 am

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by imperial.standard » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:36 am

QbertEnhanced wrote:I think that the most important thing to capture from KS was the aspect of these girls being human beings. We could just as much do it with any other set of girls, but for the sake of challenge picked those with mental disabilities. I think part of the reason KS has hit the internet so hard, is that it more or less ignores disability. I think there's many more stories to tell in this vein and theme. I think that a true successor need only carry the message that we all can be loved, and that we're all human beings.
Vraiment d'accord

The challenge of our project would be on how we are suppossed to picture these people with mental problems as...well, people, to be cared and loved about and not shunned. We're brainstorming on the characters and will soon flesh out some additional designs.
Image

"With words like these, we DON'T CURE patients, we make them INCURABLE"

Saint Peter Canisius, S.J., on polemical attacks against John Calvin & Melanchton

User avatar
Carnificus
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:22 am
Location: Florida

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Carnificus » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:36 am

alabaster wrote:
Ockbald wrote:Hence why I wanted it to be different. I'm all up for taking KS and do something inspired by it, but making a VN about mental disabled girls in a special school where there are 5 of them and you just got around one of them and their conflict past and personality feels like going through the motions and a disservice to everbody who played KS.

I will try to give my support to the project and help it become it's own thing. However if consensus reaches "Let's just do what they did" I'm afraid I can't do much.
I share your sentiments. Trying to imitate KS is the worst way to go, but you also have to expect that a VN spawned directly from the aftermath of KS is going to resemble it to some degree, especially just as it's getting off the ground.

The problem with saying, "Okay, this is looking too much like KS. What can we do you make it different?" is that you then are changing out elements in an effort to superficially not seem like a KS clone. You'll be making artistic choices on the basis of "Well, they did it that way; so let's do it this way." You're still basing the process on KS, but in a different way, and I don't see this as any better than straight-up ripping KS off.

What needs to happen is for the project to evolve naturally and develop a life of its own. I've committed to helping out because I think there's some promise in it, and while the beginning stages look an awful lot like KS, I think now that we have an idea, we need to see where it goes from here. Who knows what the final product will look like, if there even is one.
I don't really think there's much you can do about it looking similar at first glance though, I mean visual novels of this type, at the start, all probably tend to look pretty similar. I mean look at Clannad, a guy in high school with a lot of emotional baggage and no friends except for this one really odd guy ends up befriending a bunch of different girls, helping them through all of their emotional problems and eventually he overcomes his own emotional baggage and falls in love. That's the basic gist of Clannad and in a general way it sounds very similar to KS, just as many other VNs do. I think as this develops it can turn into something much different than KS, and if it doesn't become something different then I don't think it'll be finished, a VN is too big of a commitment for someone to make a copycat game.
"Stories never begin nor do they end. They are comprised of people living, an endless cycle of interacting, influencing each other, and parting ways. As long as stories are told they shall not have clear endings." -Vice President Gustav St. Germain

User avatar
The Local Hentai
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:53 pm

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by The Local Hentai » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:27 am

Carnificus wrote: I think it's because of this that we'd have to tread lightly on what conditions are given to the different girls in the story. Not all mental disorders would impair a person to the point that you couldn't date them, or have sex with them. And I think it's because of this that Honeymuffin suggested we don't involve characters who suffer from mental retardation or involve rape in their past storyline.
But that would lessen the game's impact. It's would be like playing KS with the one of the girls blind in one eye, deaf in one ear, missing a hand (miki), missing a foot, only has light burns, and a bisexual with a semiloud voice. The disorders have to be prominent enough to differentiate which girl's which without it impairing someone from having an actual relationship. I've dated professionally diagnosed crazy girls before, even got stabbed in the leg just because of rumor, and I can really say that there's a huge difference between a physical handicap and a mental one, no matter how slight.

If it wasn't a bishoujo get a girlfriend game, it can still get the same impact but with a different set of overall storyline.

User avatar
Hamadyne
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:23 am
Location: At a computer.
Contact:

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Hamadyne » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:12 am

The Local Hentai wrote:
Carnificus wrote: I think it's because of this that we'd have to tread lightly on what conditions are given to the different girls in the story. Not all mental disorders would impair a person to the point that you couldn't date them, or have sex with them. And I think it's because of this that Honeymuffin suggested we don't involve characters who suffer from mental retardation or involve rape in their past storyline.
But that would lessen the game's impact. It's would be like playing KS with the one of the girls blind in one eye, deaf in one ear, missing a hand (miki), missing a foot, only has light burns, and a bisexual with a semiloud voice. The disorders have to be prominent enough to differentiate which girl's which without it impairing someone from having an actual relationship. I've dated professionally diagnosed crazy girls before, even got stabbed in the leg just because of rumor, and I can really say that there's a huge difference between a physical handicap and a mental one, no matter how slight.

If it wasn't a bishoujo get a girlfriend game, it can still get the same impact but with a different set of overall storyline.
I agree. Maybe not all of the stories need an H-scene? Perhaps no H-scenes at all? Not all VNs involve sex. Mind you, sex can happen. But again, as said before, depending on the mental condition, sexual activity can be seen much differently when you add the bipolar/OCD/autism/whatever-itis label.

If anything, any writers for this game would have to do a lot of research into what makes a certain disorder 'tick'. From there, you can create a character with a believable story.
HERRO

User avatar
Carnificus
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:22 am
Location: Florida

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Carnificus » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:15 am

The Local Hentai wrote:
Carnificus wrote: I think it's because of this that we'd have to tread lightly on what conditions are given to the different girls in the story. Not all mental disorders would impair a person to the point that you couldn't date them, or have sex with them. And I think it's because of this that Honeymuffin suggested we don't involve characters who suffer from mental retardation or involve rape in their past storyline.
But that would lessen the game's impact. It's would be like playing KS with the one of the girls blind in one eye, deaf in one ear, missing a hand (miki), missing a foot, only has light burns, and a bisexual with a semiloud voice. The disorders have to be prominent enough to differentiate which girl's which without it impairing someone from having an actual relationship. I've dated professionally diagnosed crazy girls before, even got stabbed in the leg just because of rumor, and I can really say that there's a huge difference between a physical handicap and a mental one, no matter how slight.

If it wasn't a bishoujo get a girlfriend game, it can still get the same impact but with a different set of overall storyline.
Meh, I don't really see it in that light, it's not as though you're going to give the girls something as minor as insomnia, you can still give them serious mental disorders that affect their lives and make them difficult to communicate with, but you have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to mental disorders, which is something that you don't have to do for physical disorders. You can't have a game where your main character is having sex with girls that he can completely take advantage of, but that doesn't rule out any number of other more severe mental disorders.
"Stories never begin nor do they end. They are comprised of people living, an endless cycle of interacting, influencing each other, and parting ways. As long as stories are told they shall not have clear endings." -Vice President Gustav St. Germain

User avatar
Rykthrall
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:52 pm

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by Rykthrall » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:42 am

Rolanberry wrote:
Merlyn_LeRoy wrote:
Harlequin13 wrote:A character with actual schizophrenia that you PLAY AS... Now that would be something weird to try and write. The inner monologue of a schizofrenic, yea.
"schizophrenia most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood."
work.jpg
I'd vote for auditory hallucinations (hearing voices), which I think is a common type. The voices could be a weird counterpoint to the MC's thoughts and feelings.
Actually...it really could work. After reading this I thought of the Anime Afro Samurai. The Samurai has a Ninja friend...who is not real. Though the Samurai is very much so stoic and 'bad ass' the Ninja is a joker and makes observations of things, and in essence notices things that the Samurai does and 'doesn't' Notice.

This would actually be a pretty good gameplay wise and make it different from KS in that the protagonist would have a 'buddy' along with his own observations. It adds alot more creativity in what you can do fer certain scenes and character growth (H-scenes come to mind, since the protag would want some alone time from some 'one' he's basically attached to all the time and is always with )
I actually once read a book where the main character is effectively a schizophrenic.
In the beginning of the story, the MC gets into a train crash with all his friends. It's shown that they all miraculously survived but the city they were in has suddenly been filled with zombies. The story goes on and hints are given that his friends are not quite what they seem. When the time comes to escape, he ends up leaving his friends behind. He gets deep into thought about what happened over the course of the book and realises that everything was a hallucination. A rejection of reality if you will.
Because as it turns out, all his friends died in the train crash at the beginning of the book. He had been talking (thinking actually, quotation marks are very rare in the book) to himself the entire time.

So yeah, it's not actually very difficult to write up a story about a schizophrenic. It's pretty much like writing a story about a ghost that nobody but you can see or something like that.

g

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by g » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:58 am

wanting to make a VN like this is a bit bold and you're going to need people who have these illnesses on your team. some of the things i've seen in this thread totally miss the mark, no offense. the first character with all of the bandages--not a good representation of a cutter, much less someone with depression.

here are some quick things to think about:

1) patient confidentiality
the setting of this VN would have to stay out of the hospital. confidentiality is a very important right given to patients. usually, minimal contact is allowed between patients, especially if they are under the age of 18. personal contact information is not supposed to be exchanged. the idea of being in the hospital is: you get your individual treatment, you get back into the real world and your stay is nothing more than something to get you in better shape and send you back into the world in better condition and with better skills to cope. a psychiatric hospital does not foster relationships. i say this in context of how things work in the US; it could be slightly different in europe but i highly doubt the confidentiality thing isn't present there in some form

2) it would not be typical for a mentally disabled person to end up at a specialized school (exception being those w/ autism spectrum disorders)
in the present day, it is not believable for someone to make arrangements for a specialized school if they are depressed, bipolar etc. it made sense in KS because the disabilities some of the students had required some accommodation for them, needing checkups, physical evaluations etc that could not be given in a regular school. mentally disabled don't have those kind of needs and the last that most of them want to feel is that they are different and need extra special attention. many people with mental illnesses get through school fine, even with considerable struggle. many might try acquiring their GED as opposed to acquiring their diploma. a special school does nothing more than isolate them further from the world that they struggle in. such a school could hardly offer much; group therapy, med monitoring, sure. but they need individual attention, which they can get by sticking with the specialists of their choice.

i would advise against a project like this because there is so much potential for it to go wrong. i haven't even listed half of the things i've thought of in reading the posts :s

person

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by person » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:06 am

OK, Katawa shoujo was one thing but this is too much. Kids with these issues are serious cases and shouldn't be subject of romantic pursuit. They have more important things to worry about.

The two girls shown are extreme to the ridiculous. A depressed person doesn't walk around all obvious and cry all the time. They keep themselves private. And cutters probably would not wear their self abuse like a fashion statement. The girl with the thing in her head is just...stupid. To have it sticking out is incredibly dangerous. If it got hit her brain could be seriously damaged. The doctors would cut off the part that sticks out and do something about the exposed skull. If there were a girl with such extreme tendencies for self harm and one with a complete false persona I think they would both be hospitalized immediately and be in no position to have a relationship.

User avatar
kosherbacon
Posts: 903
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:30 pm
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by kosherbacon » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:18 am

Hey guys, I do have a few fleshed out but unpublished characters from my Kyouki Shoujo story that can be retooled and donated to this setting. Nonetheless, I am very interested in being a part of this effort. I rather enjoy writing through/about characters with unusual mentalities.

User avatar
imperial.standard
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:37 am

Re: Would you play a "mental disability" VN similar to KS?

Post by imperial.standard » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:27 am

Just to rehash on the concept I have made so far and some new visualizations...

Again, still very sorry I still havent got a new scanner yet. Once this is done, all artwork to be rescanned for documentation + study

The uniform concept of the highschool
Image
This early concept based on parochial schools but very effective with the right colours I think...


Some of the fleshed out supporting characters
Image

From left to right;
- Siegfriend Schultz Faber - the school's counselor and in-house psychiatrist
- Ben Bosworth - the school's principal
- Edna Claes - the school's uptight Math teacher and math olympics trainer

Image

Warden & Gate guards for psychiatry ward & entry to school complex

Some of the proposed main character & target girls

Image
Nantes Goshen - Mild Schizophrenia, proposed main character

Image
Katja Böhm - severe depression / suicidal

Image
Louise von Habsburg (Agatha Schneider) - head injury / behavioral / change delusional

Image
Katja Belova - Bipolar disorder / Minor Kleptomaniac (characterization by Worthington)

Image
Hanagawa Sumire - PTSD / Unprovoked panic attack

I think of all the characters I made, I felt Sumire has the weakest link and characterization here. I'd need help input to all drawings, by the way...
kosherbacon wrote:Hey guys, I do have a few fleshed out but unpublished characters from my Kyouki Shoujo story that can be retooled and donated to this setting. Nonetheless, I am very interested in being a part of this effort. I rather enjoy writing through/about characters with unusual mentalities.
Do let the chief (Honeymuffins) or me know in details?
Image

"With words like these, we DON'T CURE patients, we make them INCURABLE"

Saint Peter Canisius, S.J., on polemical attacks against John Calvin & Melanchton

Post Reply