Shizune's path

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encrypted12345
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by encrypted12345 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:27 pm

Titus wrote:Well, maybe I shouldn't say and I should leave you to figure it out for yourself...but being a know-it-all prick and playing games with you is Shizune's way of flirting with you.
EXACTLY!!! It amazes me how few people figure that out. Maybe I only figured it out because of my experience with eroge. :lol:

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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Mirage_GSM » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:00 am

Maybe some people simply don't care about that way of being flirted with...
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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gecko
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by gecko » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:12 am

I've got no problem with Shizune being competitive and playful, or for her not knowing how to display affection the way I would be waiting for it, because it's in character for her. It's established that she's competitive and bossy, and it's shown later that she doesn't know how to interact with friends without risking to push them away.
My problem was with Hisao.
In Shizune's path, he's supposed to be quite assertive / competitive himself (that's how he got to be on Shizune's path). And he's got a girl who's officially accepted to be his girlfriend, then who's had kinky sex with him. And then, for MONTHS, she just works and works and works, and he just lets it slide. Not even trying to get a hug, hold her hand, or steal a kiss? I wanted to reach through the screen and shake him and yell at him!
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metalangel
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by metalangel » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:52 pm

We might not see everything they get up to during that extended gap, as near the end Shizune sadly notes she's been neglecting him and their relationship.*

Should he have been more forceful? Maybe, but do you think Shizune would put up with any sort of crap, even from him? She does what she wants, when she wants. It's only as we get nearer the end of the story that she's realized, among a number of other things, that not everyone can share her drive, all the time. I think after this she'd be more receptive to Hisao saying, "Hey, let's just go enjoy ourselves" when it's his idea, not hers. Unfortunately for the reader, there's not enough pages left in the book to see much of that because we have to stop Misha WAHAHAing herself over the edge and then it's graduation.

*worth considering that despite the gap, they still consider each other to be in their relationship, so either there was some, limited contact... or the feelings and connections they made are strong enough to have not broken during that busy time.

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Quitch
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Quitch » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:42 pm

That's what internal monologue is for.

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Titus
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Titus » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:18 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:Maybe some people simply don't care about that way of being flirted with...
Whether you like it or not is up to you, but that you understand that it is her way of affection is the point.
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by DeleV » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:22 pm

It took me another week, but I've finally finished my reread of Shizune's path. I can actually recommend everyone that hasn't done so and has at least some interest in Shizune's character, to do so. It's well worth the time. And if there was any doubt before, I now put this path firmly at the top.

This time I actually made some notes with regard to how scenes fit into the whole time line. Whether that is really a good idea remains to be seen. While it helps understanding in some places, it also highlights longer durations where you didn't expect them. And then there is the question about what was actually consciously written. Naturally I have no idea how A22 does things, but I have noticed before that writers of character drama sometimes forget about trivial matters like factual correctness and just focus on characterisation. In any case, I will share my views.

The start of Act 2, the day after the festival, can actually be dated at June 11th. Interesting is the fact that it runs till about end July/early August in just five scenes (up to Bread, scissors, paper). The time itself is actually not so surprising as it would take some effort to learn sign, but it's quite a while to keep Shizune in the dark about what he's doing. The first time around I wondered why she never made a point of it. This time it's easy to realise that Hisao learning sign for her is probably the single most impressive thing anybody has ever done for her. And with her personality as someone trying to draw people close to her, he actually became one of the few to make the a leap towards her. This would be a strong motivator for to accept Hisao's confession five days later, even though she might not have been fully ready for it.

I already wrote something about the meaning of the following trip here, so I won't repeat it but it's still relevant. Basically, from the time Hisao started signing to Shizune, till "The Anchor" after the trip is about two weeks. Hardly enough time to do anything meaningful between would-be-lovers when people are preoccupied with other things.

Now the thing that I find harder to place is that the scene after "The Anchor", "Roadmap", mentions the end of summer break. This suggests that something close to a month must have passed which isn't reflected in the dialogue. This seems a bit long for Shizune to close herself off while Misha distances herself further.

Now the events from "Roadmap" to "The Summit" span two weeks where things get really interesting. This is where Shizune's character blossoms with all its insecurity. The most interesting from the second read was actually that without having my full attention to the story about Misha, I was more open to the interaction between Shizune and Hisao. This time around I was actually able to see that Shizune left herself open to romantic moments, but it was Hisao that chickened out. From Shizune's perspective I can understand that with the trouble she got into with Misha, she's actually being less forceful this time and leave it up to Hisao to accept her attempts. The problem for me personally is that I don't understand Hisao's perspective as well. I suppose the source of his fear and insecurity is rooted in the fact that he has only been talking through sign a short while and is still not comfortable. In fact, talking sign may take so much concentration that he is unable to process other information very well. It'd be interesting to read an analysis of his behaviour from someone who is better in tune with his character.

Anyway, to get to the point. My reread confirmed why Shizune's character appeals to me more than the others do. She's easily the most multifaceted character in the game and there is no single work that does her character any justice. The thing that strikes me though is that from all the characters she probably has it the harshest. She is seriously impaired in her communication because no matter what method she uses, it's always going to be limited. On top of that she has a very outgoing personality that she can't fully express. With not even her family making an effort to communicate directly, she must have been very lonely. And it really places her whole character in context.

So ..... wow! I can't thank A22 enough for going down a different path from the other stories.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by johiyo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:15 pm

Brilliant. I'll be doing a re-read of Shizune pretty soon, myself.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Dullfinn » Sun May 20, 2012 10:54 pm

Finally, finished Shizune's path about a week ago, and been thereafter busy reading this forum. Much like with Rin earlier, some of the more in-depth posts (in several threads) made understanding her route easier. However, unlike with Rin, I didn't gain much more appreciation for the story/experience as a whole. Simply put: while I think there were elements that were fun and interesting, they never really shone through the way they should have. Instead what I got was a long-winded, unfocused and unbalanced love-triangle, of sorts, that I didn't "get" or like. (It's funny how, based on the demo/Act1, I sort of liked Shizune and really liked Rin, but after playing their respective routes, I felt that both of them transformed into something unlikeable.)

To be more wordy, if it wasn't for Misha and Kenji (the latter who really delivers here!) I probably would've stopped midway through. It's a shame, really, because I think there was a side of Shicchan that I liked: she seemed cool and composed, a little bit mischievous and mysterious too. Why is it then that pretty much everything the story throws at me makes me hate being with her? It's funny, in a way, because in-game Hisao starts liking her more and more. But why? Perhaps - like he jokes in the 'good end' - he gets his kicks out of bureaucracy and, apparently, being in a platonic, non-communicative relationship... For me, the defining moment of how bad the route was, was when Hisao had to babysit Hideaki. Not only was it pointless, but the real kick comes right afterwards: Shizune suggests that they could go to a restaurant or maybe even to an amusement park, and then, BLAMMO, fade to black! I mean, what the fuck? Where's my rollercoaster snapshot and cotton-candy? After that disappointment, I was just waiting for the story to end, not caring anymore. (And Jigoro? Worst. Character. Ever.)

Something about Misha: while I absolutely love her character, I don't really get her motivation here. She's been rejected, okay, but why does she still put up with Shizune? What makes her like her? Or the other way around: why exactly does the arrival of Hisao apparently make her depressed about the whole deal? There's also one specific detail that bothers me, and I haven't seen much speculation about it: why was it stated, that during the first sex-scene, the door was left ajar? I immediately thought Misha's there, watching, either by happenstance, or more kinkily, with Shizune's blessing, but it never comes up in any form.

On my first playthrough, I chose to comfort Misha, so I landed on the 'bad end' first. But to me, it was the more plausible and "real" ending, I liked it. I felt the pushy, unlikeable girl got what she deserved - no-one. In a way - because she finally understands/admits how badly she's been treating the people around her - it might even present her a new change to truly make things right - just not with Hisao or Misha. (In hindsight, it was only after reading these threads that I noticed the cat toy. While playing - because the story is so needlessly long and arduous to read - I had totally forgotten about it already. Perhaps it makes Shicchan slightly more affectionate and likeable, but only slightly.) The 'good end', on the other hand, was even longer, argh, and also too melodramatic, in a bad way. Like, why does Hisao suddenly decide to become a teacher? (Not to mention how unrealistic it would be for him to also get a position right there, at Yamaku.) I think it was either on Rin's or Emi's path that he gradually, while talking with Mutou, warms up to the idea that he could have a future as a teacher which felt way more realistic. Pretty much the only thing I liked about the 'good end' was Yuuko taking pictures. She proved to be useful, after all!

Lastly, some random thoughts: why do so many people wonder how Jigoro managed to get into the school with his sword? None of the schools I've ever been to had any sort of security... However, I'd imagine the dorms having locks though, so, more importantly, how did Hideaki get there? Also, how come some people didn't catch the "comfort=sex" thing? Because, if taken literally, why WOULDN'T you comfort your friend? Thingking it that way makes the situation really ridiculous: since it's already the only choice you get to make, if it wasn't about sex, it wouldn't have ANY meaning, heh...

PS: Does anyone remember a pop-due by the name of tATu? They were these two russian girls, pseudolesbians, who were popular about ten years ago. Ever since I first saw a picture of Misha and Shizune, I have wondered if tATu ties into them. Because, if you do an image search, you'll notice how the other one has dark, short hair, while the more curvier one has red, wavy hair - and also smiles more often, heh!

Anyhoo, Lilly and Hanako remain. I suppose I'll go after Lilly first, because she seems very bland, and perhaps because so many people tend to think Hanako's route is in someway more touching... we'll see.
Favourite girls: Misha > Emi > Yuuko > Akira > Rin > Shizune > Hanako > Lilly
Favourite boys: Kenji > Nurse > Mutou > Nomiya > Hisao > Hideaki > Jigoro

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by mysterycycle » Sun May 20, 2012 11:13 pm

Of course Jigoro got into the school with his sword. He's Jigoro. Apparently you disbelievers haven't read his autobiography yet.

I'm really glad some folks got a lot out of Shizune's path. I lost emotional investment halfway through, and the mindset was so alien to mine (both Shizune's and Hisao's) that I had a difficult time keeping interested. But I liked her character.
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metalangel
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by metalangel » Mon May 21, 2012 6:04 am

Dullfinn wrote: Something about Misha: while I absolutely love her character, I don't really get her motivation here. She's been rejected, okay, but why does she still put up with Shizune? What makes her like her?
We'll never know the exact reasons, but a lot of us find Shizune hot so why wouldn't Misha? Plus, Misha wants to be a sign language teacher and she gets invaluable practice being Shizune's interpreter.
Or the other way around: why exactly does the arrival of Hisao apparently make her depressed about the whole deal?
Even if someone outright rejects you romantically but still tolerates your presence as a friend, you might will still hang out hoping that one day they'll see the light and fall into your arms (so many porn movies use this idea, especially lesbian ones). Then Hisao turns up, Shizune immediately takes an interest in him. Misha knows what Shizune is like when she sets a goal, and even more so when they keep making 'we're cute girls! hang out with us!' comments to him.
There's also one specific detail that bothers me, and I haven't seen much speculation about it: why was it stated, that during the first sex-scene, the door was left ajar? I immediately thought Misha's there, watching, either by happenstance, or more kinkily, with Shizune's blessing, but it never comes up in any form.
There's been many thoughts on this before, but my view is that Shizune is asserting/finalizing their status as a couple. Given how 'unpleasant' family life in her house is, she doesn't care if anyone catches them, it's sort of daring them with a big middle finger raised. Contrived? Maybe, but it's a weird feeling I sometimes get, to try and arrange events so they're just right.
On my first playthrough, I chose to comfort Misha, so I landed on the 'bad end' first. But to me, it was the more plausible and "real" ending, I liked it. I felt the pushy, unlikeable girl got what she deserved - no-one. In a way - because she finally understands/admits how badly she's been treating the people around her - it might even present her a new change to truly make things right - just not with Hisao or Misha.
She has the same realization on the path to the good ending, though not quite as severe. Just as she's finally found someone she really connects with... a) her oldest friend goes all funny or b) her oldest friend sleeps with her boyfriend. All this stuff is fairly new to her and she's not prepared or sure of how to handle it. She doesn't 'deserve' the bad end, she doesn't know any better, and being completely crushed like that will set her back years.
Also, how come some people didn't catch the "comfort=sex" thing? Because, if taken literally, why WOULDN'T you comfort your friend? Thingking it that way makes the situation really ridiculous: since it's already the only choice you get to make, if it wasn't about sex, it wouldn't have ANY meaning, heh...
A lot of people here are fairly young (many v-card carrying) and have never been in that situation. Even without emotions running high, it's scary how quickly 'one thing (can) lead to another'.
PS: Does anyone remember a pop-due by the name of tATu? They were these two russian girls, pseudolesbians, who were popular about ten years ago. Ever since I first saw a picture of Misha and Shizune, I have wondered if tATu ties into them. Because, if you do an image search, you'll notice how the other one has dark, short hair, while the more curvier one has red, wavy hair - and also smiles more often, heh!
They don't, even with this promotional image which is straight out of Misha's friskiest dreams (note: "Shizune" still doesn't approve and is probably wondering if chewing her arm off to escape outweighs not being able to sign any more)

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by yummines » Mon May 21, 2012 7:47 am

well i played through much of Shizune's path (almost done, passed the comforting part) and i have to say i still agree with most that it's my least favorite route. The only route i haven't played yet is Lily's (which i have high hopes for).

the main thing i liked about Shizune's route is how Hisao interacted much more in depth with a bunch of side characters than in other routes. Kenji shows his shaman eyes, Hisao goes fishing with Lily and Akira, talks a little with Hidedeki, meets Jigoro, and Misha cuts her hair. Meanwhile in Rin's route you talk to some art teacher, Hanako you chat some with Akira and Lily, Emi you talk a little with her mom and Rin.

what i don't like in particular is that Shizune doesn't seem to go through much character development. she realizes many of her faults and how she affects people around her, but that's not to say she didn't know already. Plus i don't like her pushy character, and why the heck wouldn't she talk with her own father even though he said it straight that he tried hiring translators and such? maybe then he wouldn't be such a hardass.

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metalangel
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by metalangel » Mon May 21, 2012 12:17 pm

yummines wrote: she realizes many of her faults and how she affects people around her, but that's not to say she didn't know already. Plus i don't like her pushy character, and why the heck wouldn't she talk with her own father even though he said it straight that he tried hiring translators and such? maybe then he wouldn't be such a hardass.
What, apart from her dad taking the audist view that she's somehow 'broken' and needs to be made as hearing as possible with speech therapists and god knows what else? You've seen what he's like, he would firstly have not given her any input on this, and secondly remind her how disappointed he was that his daughter ain't right. She's had 18 years of this, and Hisao enduring Jigoro without giving up or losing his temper tells Shizune she's found The One.

There's a lot of Shizune threads giving more detail if you want it.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Megumeru » Mon May 21, 2012 1:37 pm

metalangel wrote:
yummines wrote: she realizes many of her faults and how she affects people around her, but that's not to say she didn't know already. Plus i don't like her pushy character, and why the heck wouldn't she talk with her own father even though he said it straight that he tried hiring translators and such? maybe then he wouldn't be such a hardass.
What, apart from her dad taking the audist view that she's somehow 'broken' and needs to be made as hearing as possible with speech therapists and god knows what else? You've seen what he's like, he would firstly have not given her any input on this, and secondly remind her how disappointed he was that his daughter ain't right. She's had 18 years of this, and Hisao enduring Jigoro without giving up or losing his temper tells Shizune she's found The One.

There's a lot of Shizune threads giving more detail if you want it.
I don't know, but somehow seeing others stand up and willing to understand her brought a smile to my face...somehow.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Dullfinn » Mon May 21, 2012 2:03 pm

metalangel wrote:A lot of people here are fairly young (many v-card carrying) and have never been in that situation.
I don't know what a "v-card" is, and this is a bit off-topic, but are there any polls or statistics about this subject? And/or how old the devs (mainly the writers) are?

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