Shizune's path

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scorptatious
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by scorptatious » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:30 pm

In retrospective, I think Shizune's path had a bit of wasted potential. I didn't really want to admit it because she's one of my favorite characters in the game. The first two acts were really good in my opinion. And meeting up with Shizune's family, and Lily and her sister Akira was pretty cool in Act 3 was pretty cool.

After that though, it seemed like things started to slowly spiral downward. The plot tiwst Misha being a lesbian and revealing she used to be in love with Shizune was interesting. But I felt that it could have been written a bit better. Plus even though it sorta makes sense how Hisao and Shizune interact as a couple, considering she's not good with people and for all we know, Misha was pretty much her only friend, she wouldn't know how to interact in a romantic relationship I still wish that they could've developed a bit better as a couple. Finally, the way most of Act 4 was written seemed to be really confusing and unnecessarily complicated. What with how the story explains Shizune's motives and character.

The ending was good though. As some people have stated previously, it's open ended. Plus it shows how much Hisao has changed over the course of the route. He decides he wants to teach at Yamaku. Hoping that one day he will meet someone who was as bitter as he was and help him realize that life is too short and it has to be lived to the fullest. Plus he does intend on chasing after Shizune.

All in all, while I still liked Shizune's route, I also felt like it could have been better, so as a result I can't really rank this route among my favorites. I still really like Shizune as a character though. At least in the other paths.

Like in Lilly's: in which she shares a brief and special moment with Lilly. Which made up for what happened in the past.

Or in Hanako's:when despite the fact that she's friends with Lilly, she invites Hanako to work in her group seeing as how Hanako and Hisao are friends.

*phew* Glad I got that off my chest. It's been bothering me for a while now. :lol:

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Quitch
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Quitch » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:02 pm

I often felt that the best Shizune moments weren't in Shizune's route.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Guest » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:35 pm

scorptatious wrote: Or in Hanako's:when despite the fact that she's friends with Lilly, she invites Hanako to work in her group seeing as how Hanako and Hisao are friends.

*phew* Glad I got that off my chest. It's been bothering me for a while now. :lol:
I agree. In Hanako's path, I read a lot of "URGH I WANTED TO KICK MISHA AND SHIZUNE IN THEIR TWATS AFTER THAT CLASSROOM BREAKDOWN SCENE", but neither Misha or Shizune actually did anything malicious - if anything, it showed how they weren't saying things to bully her, if anything it was just out of sheer thoughtlessness. Misha realised quickly when she put her foot in it and was genuinely upset and apologetic, and Shizune helps Hisao remove Hanako from the room and shows some pretty real concern for her - one of the only really emotional sides we see of Shizune (and it's not even in her route goddamn).

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metalangel
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by metalangel » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:32 pm

Raiel wrote: I though Shizune would at least make some noises or try to speak. But that didn't play much of a role in the plot. Maybe her dad is really at fault, and she just refuses to make any noise. Or the writers didn't think of it.
My understanding is that if you're deaf from birth, it's infinitely harder to learn to speak because you've never heard the sounds you can make or how to control them. If you became deaf later in life (even early on) it's a lot easier, though your speech may still sometimes sound 'distorted' because you can't correct it by hearing it.

(think of Laura in Seinfeld)

In Shizune's case, I think she learned from an early age to suppress any noise she could make because of the hostile environment of her household. Snapping her fingers is something she knows she can control, hence her fondness for it. In passion, she can't help letting a little noise escape but even so she resists it. After all, she has taught herself to laugh silently!

Morello
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Morello » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:20 pm

Just finished Shizune's route. I liked, but there are less options than Emi's route, right? I mean, after having or not sex with Misha, there's just no more decisions.
Also, I first got the bad end. Even after doing the good end right now, I'm still feeling sad for Shizune... like that was the "true" ends. :(

And, LOL, I just wanted to have sex with Misha because, in another dimension, she helped me with Emi and I was feeling required to reward.

Aerowind

Re: Shizune's path

Post by Aerowind » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:29 pm

My biggest problem is there a lot of missed potential and dropped plot lines. Like Shizune's father apparently being too much of a jerkass to even understand his daughter is deaf. At least, that's the way it came off, with his comments. I guess it just never got deep emotionally like all the other branches did. There were never any relationship problems (indeed, the only real conflict came from Misha feeling sorry for herself) and it just felt like a generic high school romance.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by curlyquote » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:07 pm

^^^ I think it was an attempt to show how far Jigoro is in denial of his life. He was a seriously interesting character, and a lot of things were implied through him.

I personally had a very hard time going through Shizune's path. As someone who was psychologically and physically abused in a previous relationship, I felt extremely unsettled by lack of consent that Hisao gave to virtually every aspect of his relationship with Shizune. I feel like Shizune didn't grow enough by the end of the story towards understanding the importance of consent in healthy human relationships so that I could feel some sort of internal resolution of the feelings evoked by the non-consentual situations. Well, on to Lily's path!

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by griffon8 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:56 pm

Morello wrote:And, LOL, I just wanted to have sex with Misha because, in another dimension, she helped me with Emi and I was feeling required to reward.
And that choice helped her??? :P
I found out about Katawa Shoujo through the forums of Misfile. There, I am the editor of Misfiled Dreams.

Completed: 100%, including bonus picture. Shizune>Emi>Lilly>Hanako>Rin

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metalangel
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by metalangel » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:34 pm

curlyquote wrote: lack of consent that Hisao gave to virtually every aspect of his relationship with Shizune. I feel like Shizune didn't grow enough by the end of the story towards understanding the importance of consent in healthy human relationships so that I could feel some sort of internal resolution of the feelings evoked by the non-consentual situations. Well, on to Lily's path!
Can you explain that more? I don't think I understand, and I don't think anything either of them did to each other was non-consensual.

Shizune tying him to the chair was certainly awkward but even if he couldn't sign he could still have made a very clear 'No' to her which he didn't. Some people on here think this was part of her struggling to understand how a girlfriend should express affection, and being both desperate to express it but also very afraid of not being in control.

Later on when she lets stops halfway to let Hisao be 'on top' is a major turning point for her, I think. She allows them to be undressed, she asks if he wants to initiate intimacy, and you can feel lots of affection and love and trust that she's learned to develop for him because of this.

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by curlyquote » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:55 pm

metalangel wrote:
curlyquote wrote: lack of consent that Hisao gave to virtually every aspect of his relationship with Shizune. I feel like Shizune didn't grow enough by the end of the story towards understanding the importance of consent in healthy human relationships so that I could feel some sort of internal resolution of the feelings evoked by the non-consentual situations. Well, on to Lily's path!
Can you explain that more? I don't think I understand, and I don't think anything either of them did to each other was non-consensual.

Shizune tying him to the chair was certainly awkward but even if he couldn't sign he could still have made a very clear 'No' to her which he didn't. Some people on here think this was part of her struggling to understand how a girlfriend should express affection, and being both desperate to express it but also very afraid of not being in control.

Later on when she lets stops halfway to let Hisao be 'on top' is a major turning point for her, I think. She allows them to be undressed, she asks if he wants to initiate intimacy, and you can feel lots of affection and love and trust that she's learned to develop for him because of this.
Sure no problem.

At least for the first half of the story, both Misha and Shizune forced Hisao to do what they wanted him to do. They did everything they could to manipulate him into joining the student council, they would regularly make him make bets that he didn't want to make, they forced him to help prepare for the festivals, Misha told Shizune about Hisao learning sign language, even though he asked her to keep it a secret, etc. And I'm sure other people can think of more examples of the near total lack of consent that both Misha and Shizune got from Hisao when their relationships were first building.

The sex you refer to was arguably non-consentual. There was definitely a point to the story as to why it was like that, so I don't have as much issue with it individually, but when put in context with the rest of the chapter it was disturbing to me. I can understand if other people found that Shizune's path was interesting, as I found it interesting too, but I felt like I was being abused as I played through it. It really evoked a lot of emotions that I hadn't dealt with in a long time.

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metalangel
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by metalangel » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:07 am

Thanks for explaining your view! I've said before that Shizune and Misha are the sort of friends who feed off each other's presence, they're different (and less intense) alone. This is part of the reason I pursued Shizune's path, as I wanted to know the real her when she was alone.

Yes, they railroad Hisao into a lot of stuff. However, you/he can bail on that stuff quite early on if you don't want to follow the Shizune path. They're taking advantage of the fact he's new and doesn't know any better... but Shizune tells him later she saw how miserable he was the moment he showed up, and was determined to give him a purpose, a reason to exist, to take his mind off his problems and get back into living.

Later on they still push him into stuff but by then I think a lot of the complaining has almost become an inside joke between them. He enjoys their company and tends to come away from their work satisfied at a job well done. As I said above, by this point he's chosen to be there.

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Exterminator 2000
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Exterminator 2000 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:43 pm

Finally finished Shizune's path yesterday (both endings). Took me a good deal longer than expected, though that's probably just me.

The (not so) bad: At times it felt like it dragged on a bit too long. However, this is not because of the quality of the writing or the story itself, it was just too many things happening for me without any clear indication of the direction everything was going (i.e. family subplot, a lot of Kenji rambling, etc.). Nothing of that was bad in itself, it was just a little exhausting at times, so I stopped several times to continue at a later time when I had an easier time focusing on it. The story itself was interesting, but just didn't draw me as much into itself as Emi's or Hanako's paths did (so it merely comes down to personal preference).

Oh, and Misha with short hair. I kind of liked those drills. Though for the story and her character, that was kind of important, because it shows that she's full of surprises (and someone who is constantly changing in many ways and not afraid to admit it).


The (very, very) good: Though I already mentioned the amount of subplots as "bad", it is far from that. The amount of interaction with so many people aside from Shizune and Misha was refreshing, and it was cool to get more background information on them. In hindsight, this combined with the lack of decisions makes this path feel like the "beginner" route somehow. I mean, it's not as full of drama as for example Hanako's, you're kind of dragged into the student council during act 1, and there's a lot of background info on other characters (Kenji, the Shizune/Lilly connection, Misha). Really, if I had to start again with KS without having played any other routes before, picking Shizune's would be a good choice to begin with.

Aside from that, I didn't necessarily feel that having only one choice was part of the path being rushed or anything. No, in fact it fits the whole theme perfectly, with Hisao not having to make any real choices after joining the student council. One thing is pretty much leading to another, so to speak. IMHO not having many choices was a good choice in itself. :)

Oh, and I was absolutely surprised by the Shizune/Hanako chess match. Very cool - especially what Shizune says after Hanako has left. "She doesn't truly love the game itself, she loves the memories attached to it." That was... deep, even compared to everything else. It is both right and wrong at the same time. Right, because it is not a true love for the game itself she has, but rather for the act of playing against someone (and what kind of memories she associates with chess). So, from Shizune's point of view it is correct. At the same time, it is wrong - because it IS important to her - it is just for her own reason, and she enjoys it in different way than someone else might.

Mh, what else? Oh, yes. Jigoro. I mean, HOW AWESOME IS HE? You just can't take him seriously, that's all. Though I can't remember if his occupation was revealed or not.

So... I definately enjoyed Shizune's path. It's different from the other two I've played before, but in a good way. Though it may not 'click' with everyone, you just gotta admit that the writing was great and believable; so far, I still have to find a single path that doesn't meet this standard.

P.S.: I'm doing Rin's path next.
"One guy. Two girls. In a dorm room. With a tea set.
Sounds pretty dodgy when I phrase it like that."
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"The point of no return was 1000 miles ago."
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"What's the name of that feeling in your heart, that the world is going to be alright?"

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Re: Shizune's path

Post by curlyquote » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:02 pm

metalangel wrote:Thanks for explaining your view! I've said before that Shizune and Misha are the sort of friends who feed off each other's presence, they're different (and less intense) alone. This is part of the reason I pursued Shizune's path, as I wanted to know the real her when she was alone.

Yes, they railroad Hisao into a lot of stuff. However, you/he can bail on that stuff quite early on if you don't want to follow the Shizune path. They're taking advantage of the fact he's new and doesn't know any better... but Shizune tells him later she saw how miserable he was the moment he showed up, and was determined to give him a purpose, a reason to exist, to take his mind off his problems and get back into living.

Later on they still push him into stuff but by then I think a lot of the complaining has almost become an inside joke between them. He enjoys their company and tends to come away from their work satisfied at a job well done. As I said above, by this point he's chosen to be there.
Yeah absolutely, I think you make good points. Thanks for your point of view!

dreamer

Re: Shizune's path

Post by dreamer » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:19 pm

I love Shizune as a character, she's my favourite, and it was nice to get some backstory on how she is and how she thinks, especially in her own words. It means a lot more coming from Shizune than getting Misha's translation, and the moment Hisao could understand a sign (I think it was "good morning") my heart leapt a little inside. I like Shizune. I like her a lot.

I enjoyed the route itself, but yes, it was extremely bittersweet. I even enjoyed the bad ending ("enjoyed" is the wrong word - maybe "got the feels and wanted to fucking kill Hisao for being a cheating tosser" is better?) because the writing was very believable despite the lack of direction at times - even the H-scene with Misha was believable, even if I thought or rather hoped that Hisao would feel more guilt. However, this is probably because I can relate to how Shizune is in personality and have some similarities as to her backstory. Hell, if the other routes are apparently better than hers then I think I'm in for a real treat.

I'm not sure if A22 meant for Jigoro to be funny, or so horrible that he was funny (in fact I'm not sure what A22 meant for a lot of Shizune's route - it seemed to flounder at some parts, particularly in Acts 3 and 4). Judging by some of the ridiculous stuff he came out with, s/he probably did. However I raged during most of the family arc and I'm not even sure if that was the reaction I was meant to have. We're not told a lot about Shizune's childhood and we only see her family for a bit. A lot of people are relating to KS when it comes to Hanako, Hisao, Lilly, Rin ... but I could relate to Shizune in that I had a father who thought that parts of me I couldn't change or do anything about were wrong and needed fixing too. He also thought and still thinks that money was and is the answer to everything and can buy all sorts of "cures", not actually being a dad and caring about and supporting your kids. Thankfully the rest of my family were more supportive, but when you grow up with a parent viewing you as broken or just plain "too stubborn to change" when in actual fact it's a lot harder than that, the urge to make people happy to the point of being obsessive is ... well, I can relate to it. I'm not even deaf, I grew up easily communicating with most of the world ... and Shizune, who's not had that luxury, would only have her loneliness, lack of social skills and feelings intensified by that. Some people noted that Shizune and Hisao didn't seem to have a lot going on, but I think you're forgetting that Hisao had to learn an entire new language to talk with her and the interaction between deaf people and hearing people is very different - there's even different sets of what not to do, what's considered rude, etc - Shizune comes from a wholly different background, and her disability, while it doesn't define her, is still a large part of who she's turned out to be. She wanted the power so she could reach out to people, and at the end of the day she only wanted friends and to see the school having a good time at the festivals, even if it'd take a hell of a long time for her to actually admit that. I was a lot like Shizune when I was her age. She's a bitch, but an honest bitch, and a bitch with a heart of gold at that.

I didn't like Hideaki. Shizune may as well have had a cardboard cutout for a brother, it would have had a ton more charisma.

I actually disliked Misha in Act 1 but gained a bit of sympathy for her during the route. Not as much as I had for Shizune, but a bit regardless because even when she does get the "comfort" she desperately craves, it ends up being worthless to her and the guilt sets in very, very quickly. It does take two to tango (and cheat on your girlfriend) but Hisao was the one with the clearer mind that night. One thing I did note is that Misha says it's her "first time with a guy - it's weird" - does this imply she's actually slept with a woman? Her confusion and emotional trauma would make a ton more sense if she'd sought comfort from Shizune at some point and something very similar happened.

gonna stop before i write an essay lawl

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Theeyebrowsofdoom
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Re: Shizune's path

Post by Theeyebrowsofdoom » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:38 am

Shizune's path had I think the most depressive sex scene I've played so far, and you know who I'm talking about. I literally chickened out and said "I can't go through with this" and just loaded the game again to play out the other choice -- but went back out of curiosity anyway. It was sad. She doesn't even look at his face for a while there. And the abrupt mood shift from smiling to desperate punched me in the face. Other than that, Shizune's sex procedures didn't surprise me one bit. Fit like a glove. Generally I felt that there was a lot of filler material, I think you'll know what I mean.

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