The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

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Theeyebrowsofdoom
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Theeyebrowsofdoom » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:08 pm

I just finished Lilly's route, so I'd like to draw a conclusion from what I saw in hers and Hanako's routes. I suggest you don't read ahead if you aren't done with Lilly's route yet, because what I'm about to say may be perceived as spoilers.


People say Hanako ends up better off at Lilly' route. True, in-gamely. However, Hanako's route ends while Lilly is still in Scotland, so halfway Lilly's route. Hanako's character development towards less introversion kicks in full speed way after Lilly's return. So, were Hanako's route to continue, we would have seen her go through all that positive stuff AND add to that her budding romance with Hisao. Makes me wish there were some more Hanako material somewhere. We really can't ask for sequels, can we?

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newnar
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by newnar » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:09 pm

Brogurt wrote:Keep in mind that the game has been touted as an eroge since the beginning, and technically Hisao hadn't fucked anything yet and the path was about to end.
Not sure if much else needs saying.
If you don't mind me saying, but this isn't really a good reason to just fuck someone.

*sees hot chick on the road*
"Hey there, I'm just reaching the end of my 20s and I haven't had any sex yet. I'm supposed to be a pretty horny guy, so can we fuck?"



Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong(haven't gone through every route yet), but is Hanako's route the only route where Hisao tells the girl that his heart condition was previously sparked off by his previous lover's confession?


EDIT: Brofist to Koda89.
Koda89 wrote: Hell I was still in shock at seeing the beauty of her whole body when Hisao started fondling her.
Damn Hisao to hell. Screw him.
I am a guy.
I sometimes talk like Rin Tezuka.
I am in love with Hanako Ikezawa.
NoOne3 wrote:Imagine a male Rin who secretly likes Hanako.
this
YES I AM. DEAL WITH IT.

Bagheera
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Bagheera » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:10 pm

Brogurt wrote:Keep in mind that the game has been touted as an eroge since the beginning, and technically Hisao hadn't fucked anything yet and the path was about to end.
Not sure if much else needs saying.
That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't fit, though. I would have preferred an additional scene or two (preferably with a timeskip) before they got around to sexing one another up. I mean, hell, they'd barely even touched one another at that point!
Girls: Emi = Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Shizune = Rin
Routes: Rin = Shizune > Emi > Lilly = Hanako


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Brogurt
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Brogurt » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:35 pm

Theeyebrowsofdoom wrote:Makes me wish there were some more Hanako material somewhere.
There is, it's just not "canon".

And I wasn't saying that the raep scene was justified in any way within the story. It's more like the devs just didn't give a fuck and tried to do as much as possible with as few assets and as little work as possible, probably since crud up and bailed partway through.

Pureauthor

Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Pureauthor » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:48 pm

If they'd wanted to integrate the scene in more with the themes of the route, maybe they could have done something like this:

Hanako reveals herself, Hisao goes the 'You're a wonderful person' route, and then Hanako (subtly or otherwise) makes it clear she's ready to have sex.

Hisao is about to refuse because it is clearly not the right time, but then a thought goes through his mind like 'What if she thinks I'm saying no because of her scars?' and says yes because he doesn't want to hurt her self-image even more (and completely unaware of why Hanako was offering sex in the first place)'

Bonus points because it makes the scene even more awkward for everyone involved.

Bagheera
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Bagheera » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:18 pm

Brogurt wrote:And I wasn't saying that the raep scene was justified in any way within the story.
Calling it that really isn't fair. I don't like how it played out, but it's not like he forced her, or even coerced her -- it's pretty clear neither of them was ready for what happened, but both were compelled forward by their own insecurities. Hisao wasn't a jerkface here. He was just a guy doing the best he could in a really awkward situation.
Girls: Emi = Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Shizune = Rin
Routes: Rin = Shizune > Emi > Lilly = Hanako


xaolindragon
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by xaolindragon » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:56 am

A Humbled Fan wrote:
Brogurt wrote:Keep in mind that the game has been touted as an eroge since the beginning, and technically Hisao hadn't fucked anything yet and the path was about to end.
Not sure if much else needs saying.
The point is, despite it being an eroge, you wouldn't be missing anything important if you decided to turn the H-content off.

At least in my opinion.
Well I think (and I think some other people on the forums) that the H-scene actually helped propel that sort of awkward feeling during the scene. Like by seeing how weird the characters felt, it really drove home the message that the sex might not have been the smartest move between the two. Hopefully I worded that properly/clearly.

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newnar
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by newnar » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:14 am

Bagheera wrote:
Brogurt wrote:And I wasn't saying that the raep scene was justified in any way within the story.
Calling it that really isn't fair. I don't like how it played out, but it's not like he forced her, or even coerced her -- it's pretty clear neither of them was ready for what happened, but both were compelled forward by their own insecurities. Hisao wasn't a jerkface here. He was just a guy doing the best he could in a really awkward situation.
Imho, the best he could've done would be to give her a long hug and maybe a kiss, whisper something sweet in her ear, then ask her to put her clothes back on. And spend the day in the room with her, talking about life and continuing to open up to each other.
I am a guy.
I sometimes talk like Rin Tezuka.
I am in love with Hanako Ikezawa.
NoOne3 wrote:Imagine a male Rin who secretly likes Hanako.
this
YES I AM. DEAL WITH IT.

themocaw
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by themocaw » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:29 am

Re: Hanako Sex Scene

For some reason, I think of a scene in a Miles Vorkosigan short story called "Labyrinth." The setup is a bit complicated, but suffice to say that the hero wounds up trapped in a laboratory with a "monster" who turns out to be a hormonal teenage girl under her monstrous features. What with one thing or another, he winds up having sex with her at her request. . . which, in the end, he reflects, was a good test of whether he truly saw her as a person that could be loved as opposed to a monster to be feared.

Hanako's sex scene is awkward and fumbling, but it's not because Hisao's a bad guy. It's because he's a virgin who doesn't know any better. The truth is, at this point, Hanako is at her most vulnerable emotionally. She has literally laid herself bare for him. Making love to her is Hisao's way of proving that her scars don't make her any less beautiful in his eyes: all he sees is his girlfriend. I guess he could have just cuddled her, or put her clothes back on, but in a story where the point is that Hanako shouldn't be coddled and treated like a glass sculpture because of her scars, it seems. . . counterproductive for Hisao NOT to jump at the chance to have sex with his girlfriend when they're in her room together and she's got her clothes off.

Of course, he could have been more gentle about it, the cad, but that's something that improves with practice. . .

Bagheera
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Bagheera » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:41 am

Edit: Oh wait, themocaw already said what I wanted to say, only better. :mrgreen:
Girls: Emi = Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Shizune = Rin
Routes: Rin = Shizune > Emi > Lilly = Hanako


Yotsuyasan

Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Yotsuyasan » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:55 am

Pardon me if this has been discussed much already... I'm coming into this thread late, and tried to get through it all... but by page 20 I realized that I was doing some very fast skimming and not getting much out of it.

Anyway, overall I loved Hanako's route, and was very happy with the final ending! (Or rather, new beginning!) But I was really bothered by the h-scene. Probably the only h-scene in the game that I really hated. Because Hanako really pissed me off in it. (Not that Hisao was much better, mind you.) Something about the scene really disturbed me when it was happening, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. When Hanako later explained her reasoning for letting it happen, that was when I got pissed off at her.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think her thinking and actions of giving herself to Hisao were unrealistic... just unfortunate.

Then I played her bad end. That was certainly hard to take emotionally (even if it was somewhat deserved on Hisao's part) and, of course, it felt bad... But when thinking about it afterwords, I kind of wished that had happened on her good route!

I don't mean to second guess the writers here... I enjoy the store as it stands. But what if this had happened?

Bad route: Hisao keeps trying to "protect" Hanako. She eventually decides to try something drastic to get him to change her perception of her, and they end up sleeping together. This leads to much awkwardness afterwords, and that -- combined with Hisao's attitude not having changed towards wanting to protect her -- eventually leads to a blow up much like what happened in the game's Bad end.

Good route: Hisao takes Lilly's advice and decided to stop coddling Hanako as much. Of course, there is already much precident for that, so Hanako doesn't notice Hisao's efforts right away and needs an outlet for the anger that has been building in her, so something happens that ends up with Hanako having her blow up at Hisao anyway. However, since Hisao has been making an effort this puts them in a position where after she cools down they are able to discuss the state of their relationship, and we get a scene similar to the one in the park with them realizing that they love one another for who they are and sharing a kiss in front of the bakery. (And for those who still demand an h-scene on the good path, I suppose one could be slipped in after that to show them... ahem... persuing their relationship, but I wouldn't feel it to be completely necessary.)

That would have somehow seemed more satisfying to me. But, as stated, I still enjoyed the story as it was, so good job, writers!

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scorptatious
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by scorptatious » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:35 pm

Theeyebrowsofdoom wrote:I just finished Lilly's route, so I'd like to draw a conclusion from what I saw in hers and Hanako's routes. I suggest you don't read ahead if you aren't done with Lilly's route yet, because what I'm about to say may be perceived as spoilers.


People say Hanako ends up better off at Lilly' route. True, in-gamely. However, Hanako's route ends while Lilly is still in Scotland, so halfway Lilly's route. Hanako's character development towards less introversion kicks in full speed way after Lilly's return. So, were Hanako's route to continue, we would have seen her go through all that positive stuff AND add to that her budding romance with Hisao. Makes me wish there were some more Hanako material somewhere. We really can't ask for sequels, can we?
You make a good point. I'm actually one of the people who said Hanako ended up better in Lilly's route. But I never actually thought of it that way before.

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Koda89
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Koda89 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:54 pm

scorptatious wrote:
Theeyebrowsofdoom wrote:I just finished Lilly's route, so I'd like to draw a conclusion from what I saw in hers and Hanako's routes. I suggest you don't read ahead if you aren't done with Lilly's route yet, because what I'm about to say may be perceived as spoilers.


People say Hanako ends up better off at Lilly' route. True, in-gamely. However, Hanako's route ends while Lilly is still in Scotland, so halfway Lilly's route. Hanako's character development towards less introversion kicks in full speed way after Lilly's return. So, were Hanako's route to continue, we would have seen her go through all that positive stuff AND add to that her budding romance with Hisao. Makes me wish there were some more Hanako material somewhere. We really can't ask for sequels, can we?
You make a good point. I'm actually one of the people who said Hanako ended up better in Lilly's route. But I never actually thought of it that way before.
Another way to look at it is Hanako gets to come out of her shell and deal with her problems at her own pace in Lilly's path, whereas in her own path she deals with them much faster, but at the same time it is a much more painful experience for her, but she also ends up with someone she really cares for in the end.

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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Guest Poster » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:55 pm

Imho, the best he could've done would be to give her a long hug and maybe a kiss, whisper something sweet in her ear, then ask her to put her clothes back on. And spend the day in the room with her, talking about life and continuing to open up to each other.
In other words, friend zone her? 'cause that's likely what would have happened.

Hanako's "seduction" was essentially a last-ditch effort on her part to force her relationship with Hisao down one road or another. Hanako was in love with Hisao, but Hisao had been sending mixed messages. Sometimes he'd take her into town to spend time together as equals and other times he'd conclude a game of pool with a brotherly pat on the shoulder and a promise to protect her as if he was talking to a kid sister. There wasn't that much need to spend more time talking about life or something...by the time Act 4 came around, Hisao and Hanako already spent a lot of time together but their relationship wasn't really going anywhere. At the same time, Hanako saw Hisao having heart to heart talks with Lilly, Yuuko and Miki and realized that all those other girls had a leg up on her due to the absence of the pity factor. (meaning mutual opening up would be far less ambigious and more likely to be recognized by either side as possible romance) So in a desperate effort to get out of the little sister zone, she gave Hisao the option of sleeping with her.

Since it's VERY unlikely that in the awkward atmosphere of the moment, either side would have been able to blurt out a confession, I think if Hisao had simply given Hanako a hug and asked her to put her clothes back on, Hanako would have taken that as a confirmation that Hisao indeed did not have any sexual interest in her whatsoever and merely saw her as a little sister (or a friend at most) and it's doubtful their relationship would have developed beyond that point.

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Rivan
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Re: The Hanako Thread - Spoilers, obviously

Post by Rivan » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:29 pm

Guest Poster wrote:
Imho, the best he could've done would be to give her a long hug and maybe a kiss, whisper something sweet in her ear, then ask her to put her clothes back on. And spend the day in the room with her, talking about life and continuing to open up to each other.
In other words, friend zone her? 'cause that's likely what would have happened.

Hanako's "seduction" was essentially a last-ditch effort on her part to force her relationship with Hisao down one road or another. Hanako was in love with Hisao, but Hisao had been sending mixed messages. Sometimes he'd take her into town to spend time together as equals and other times he'd conclude a game of pool with a brotherly pat on the shoulder and a promise to protect her as if he was talking to a kid sister. There wasn't that much need to spend more time talking about life or something...by the time Act 4 came around, Hisao and Hanako already spent a lot of time together but their relationship wasn't really going anywhere. At the same time, Hanako saw Hisao having heart to heart talks with Lilly, Yuuko and Miki and realized that all those other girls had a leg up on her due to the absence of the pity factor. (meaning mutual opening up would be far less ambigious and more likely to be recognized by either side as possible romance) So in a desperate effort to get out of the little sister zone, she gave Hisao the option of sleeping with her.

Since it's VERY unlikely that in the awkward atmosphere of the moment, either side would have been able to blurt out a confession, I think if Hisao had simply given Hanako a hug and asked her to put her clothes back on, Hanako would have taken that as a confirmation that Hisao indeed did not have any sexual interest in her whatsoever and merely saw her as a little sister (or a friend at most) and it's doubtful their relationship would have developed beyond that point.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.

What most people who see it would be better to give Hanako a hug and tell her to shut it, errr... dress up, don't seem to see is that it was, for her, indeed a last-ditch effort to make Hisao see her as something else than what she felt she is being seen as. Hisao had to accept she is a girl, and Hanako had to know that she can be seen as a girl craved as something other than an object to protect. Sure, they feel awkward during and afterwards. Sure, it comes a few steps too close to ruining their relationship.

The important part is that it *moves it* somewhere else. In Hanako's eyes, she was stuck at one place - constantly being reminded of how she needed *protection* and how Hisao would always be there for her because apparently she's too disabled by her shyness and scars to do anything by herself. How he'd treat her like some holy ground or object which he'd never let harm come to even if it would make her stronger in the end or even if that were what she desperately wanted.

Talking wouldn't help because as soon as Hisao would reject her one and only attempt at advancing their relationship, she'd do what she does in her neutral ending : she'd accept that there is something wrong with her and that she will never be perceived as a person for romance, but always at most as an object for protection, rarely a friend that constantly needs help. This isn't helped by Hisao's state of mind, where he pursues his role of White Knight nearly mindlessly.

I'm not sure how anyone came up with the conclusion that Hisao half-rapes Hanako. She makes it clear she tried to do everything she could muster the courage for in order for Hisao to see her as a woman and not as... whatever he's been seeing her as so far. She accepted the possibility that if she takes drastic measures, it may lead to sex between her and Hisao. Perhaps she even wanted this to happen because then, their awkward knight-friend routine would HAVE to end one way or another.

Rejecting Hanako at that point without even showing or acknowledging his own attraction towards her (and making it loud and clear that he did so), would make Hanako believe that even if Hisao could see her in a romantic light, he would never see her as an EQUAL, which was just as important to her.
She's not that fragile - she was aware of what she wanted and merely was too quick to jump the gun and decide she was a worthless person who had to take extremely drastic measures to secure anybody's true affection.



Also, to make it clear, neither Hanako's bad end nor her neutral end will result in anything good. Her bad end allows her to vent out her rage but it may end up just isolating her more - however, it still shows more promise than her neutral ending.

In the Neutral ending, Hanako accepts the kind of relationship Hisao seems to want - being her freaking knight and occasional friend when she needs one.
But, it also strongly suggests she accepts that she *cannot* be seen in a romantic light or as an equal, which means she may never develop the way she does in either Lilly's path or in her good ending.
Progress : Lilly - finished (Good ending), Hanako - finished (good ending), Rin - finished (Good ending), Shizune - finished (Bad ending), Emi - Finished (good ending)

Lilly=Rin > Hanako > Emi=Misha > Shizune

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