Rin & Lilly

[Brogurt]

His tastes probably just differ a bit from those of most of the users here.

NOOOOOOOOOOO. Nobody here is allowed to have different opinions than me. Anybody who disagrees with what I say is merely a heathen and a mongrel that has yet to be shown the light.

[G3n0c1de]

I detest Hanako, probably for the very reason you like her. I don't see 'she's hard to not like' in any fashion, detestable even for me. Lilly on the other hand speaks her mind, there is nothing wrong with that (she is just more polite about it than Shizune.)

For one thing, Hanako isn't actually high on my list. Lilly as well. I was only theorizing that Lilly fans might like Hanako because they are together a lot and are so close. Personally, I sympathize with her character because of the trauma she's gone through.

And generally, she is hard not to like. Just ask her legions of fans. Thanks to that poll we know she's the most popular. You don't like her. That's fine.

Still, you say you 'detest' her. Mind giving off a reason? A little meat to your argument?

About ranking statistics: I have the feeling that Emi and Shizune tend to end up at opposite ends of the popularity spectrum - they sure do in mine. Maybe Panty Supervisor could check that with his database

Not for me, Shizune is first and Emi is second. I like the both of them because they are active and passionate about what they do. They definitely take the lead with Hisao.

[Panty Supervisor]

About ranking statistics: I have the feeling that Emi and Shizune tend to end up at opposite ends of the popularity spectrum - they sure do in mine. Maybe Panty Supervisor could check that with his database

When Emi is ranked 1st or 2nd (9 obs.), Shizune's rank is the highest with 4.0.
When Shizune is ranked 1st or 2nd (17 obs.), Emis rank is the highest with 3.9.

I guess you're right. If Shizune is on top, Emi is at the bottom and vice versa.
^ I should probably rephrase that, but I don't want to.

However, when Emi is ranked 4th or 5th (35 obs.), it's actually Hanako with 2.2 who's at the other end of the spectrum. Shizune is right beside Emi with 3.0.
Same with Shizune. When she's ranked 4th or 5th (29 obs.), Hanako is clearly on top with 2.0 while Emi's rank is the highest of the other girls with 3.6.

[Xeoniriel]

Damn, we really have nothing else to do but theorycraft lol.

That said, obviously tastes will differ but we can generally say that certain characters come in a package for the most part.

[Rivan]

The OP observation seems to be actually true for me. Lilly is at the top of my list, and Hanako is with Rin at the 2nd place. Shizune and Emi end the list, although ironically I got Emi's ending first.

I think this might be prone to change. I am not an art person (except for writing), so I guess Rin may bore me after a while. Ironically, Hanako could also fall, as I'm not the White Knight type and I'm not sure whether I'd do better with a girl with such unhealthy shyness, either. Especially if that shyness translates directly to her overall self-esteem... Which it probably does.

[atat]

quote="G3n0c1de"]

I detest Hanako, probably for the very reason you like her. I don't see 'she's hard to not like' in any fashion, detestable even for me. Lilly on the other hand speaks her mind, there is nothing wrong with that (she is just more polite about it than Shizune.)

For one thing, Hanako isn't actually high on my list. Lilly as well. I was only theorizing that Lilly fans might like Hanako because they are together a lot and are so close. Personally, I sympathize with her character because of the trauma she's gone through.

And generally, she is hard not to like. Just ask her legions of fans. Thanks to that poll we know she's the most popular. You don't like her. That's fine.

Still, you say you 'detest' her. Mind giving off a reason? A little meat to your argument?

About ranking statistics: I have the feeling that Emi and Shizune tend to end up at opposite ends of the popularity spectrum - they sure do in mine. Maybe Panty Supervisor could check that with his database

Not for me, Shizune is first and Emi is second. I like the both of them because they are active and passionate about what they do. They definitely take the lead with Hisao.[/quote]


Easy:
1) White knight syndrome is a crutch, and one I never like. The idea that you will swoop in and save some one from their self, is in itself detestable. To assume you know better than they do, on how to live. To be sure, there are times when people need others to help them, but a large chunk of appeal of Hanako comes from the desire to 'save' her.

2) If a person, male or female, does not have the ability to approach me, I see no reason to approach them. There is no book to be opened there. Let them be, I will not fight merely to make you want to just hang out with me. The idea that breaking the shell of a persons shyness, is a good thing? Your being invasive. If a person is shy, you let it be, that's their right. What right do you have to come in an mess up their world, by working hard at it, changing yourself.

3) Following up on the above, It is that exact idea. Hisao, the character says it best 'I feel like I have to wear padded silk gloves' around her. That is a change of ones self, not a good thing. A lot of people read Train Man (Densha Otoko) and see a happy story, I read it and find a story of a man who destroys himself to impress another person. It is true, that in life, one must compromise in relationships, and change is good, but to change your very core, or to make a giant effort to accommodate some with needs like this, is a to large. Maybe she'll change, maybe not, but that is not important, because it is Hisao who has to make the effort to reach out.

For all these reasons, I detest her, and while I know people like this, I barely consider them human. My little 1st cousin, once removed, for example, was scared of me. It is understandable, he is only 3, and I have a big beard, which I know, scares children to some degree. His brother Ryan, now 8, is not, and we interacted fine. My little cousin has an excuse, he is young and has not overcome his basic instincts (though he is a little behind the curve, espically with grandma, auntie, grampa, and great uncle all in the car saying 'He is good guy... blah blah. But I do look kinda mean in the first place naturally). It is the OVERCOMING of instincts which make us human, I don't want to have a relationship with my dog no matter how utterly cute she is (and she is, what a fine animal she is, so adorable, in a way, she acts a lot like Hanako, very shy, rescued pet, but she is just an animal)

PTSD is not to be solved by an incoming stranger. It is this last part that clinches it, a person like her, does not in any way make a believable character to me. Strangely enough I have known people almost identical to the rest, I've dated a Lilly, known quite a few Shizunes (maybe a reason she's low on my list!), a few emi's too, and was very good friends with a perfect Rin, and married a half-Rin (she's like Rin, but only crazy about half the time.)

Moeblob does not make me in anyway attracted to a charter, and Brogurts crazy rant can go fly out the window it came in.

Let me guess, your tastes are simply too refined for us lowly plebeians and sheeple? Or are you gonna pull some of that "I hate the fanbase not the character" nonsense? Or are you just being so shortsighted that you're basing your rankings off of less than the first quarter of the game? And by doing so, assuming that a character who anyone with working brain cells can tell will be pretty dynamic... will, in fact, not change at all?

To end on a more decent note, Lilly is 2nd favorite for me and Rin is 4th, at the moment. Don't really see a correlation there

Lets start at the end, Change? Like I stated above, that's not Hisao's responsibility, and SHOULD not be his responsibility, he is not a white knight, nobody is.
I have no problem with the fanbase, expect maybe one now, though your post in my other recent made topic was spot on in my not so humble opionion. (The one about drinks!).
FInally refined tastes? Hanako is an attempt at subtle, but it pours it on with 10000 pounds of C6H12O6. It has nothing to do with refinement, and everything to do with living!

Long post alert! Oh wait, to late!

[G3n0c1de]

Reasons.

Nice reasoning. Like you, I also agree that Hanako's route is the White Knight route. But try thinking of it this way, KS is a game about idealized love. Not real world love with its real world complications. For some, it's nice to think that you could come into Hanako's life, and make her happy, to change her for the better. People see this sweet, broken bird, and they can't help but feel pity.

I can't really argue against disrupting someone's privacy, but Hanako is in a pretty bad situation. Yes, she's shy, but she's even more lonely. She has only one friend in Lilly. Beyond her, Hanako is starved for friendship. Her complexes make it impossible for people to reach out to her. She can improve, someone just needs to give her a chance.

As a character, Hisao isn't exactly concrete. Who is to say he's compromising himself by reaching out to another human being? There's effectively 5 versions of him so we don't know, but beyond that, player characters in VNs tend to be who the player wants. If the player wants Hisao to be a white knight, they'll see him as one. It's only when the writing specifically goes against this the player feels disappointed.

And about the 'padded gloves' thing. I don't think having tact around someone as fragile as Hanako is a change for the worse, but that's just me.

[Mirage_GSM]

Statistics

Thanks

About ranking statistics: I have the feeling that Emi and Shizune tend to end up at opposite ends of the popularity spectrum - they sure do in mine. Maybe Panty Supervisor could check that with his database

Not for me, Shizune is first and Emi is second. I like the both of them because they are active and passionate about what they do. They definitely take the lead with Hisao.

Yes, but for me there is one huge difference:
Emi takes the lead because she genuinely cares about Hisao (and frankly in that route, Hisao is a douchebag who needs someone to tell him what's good for him).
Shizune takes the lead because she likes to manipulate others.
I could put up with a bossy GF if she was bossy for reasons like that - I could never put up with someone like Shizune.

[Brogurt]

he is not a white knight, nobody is.

What.
Besides that, it looks the the crux of your argument is something along the lines of "she isn't worth changing for," to which I reply: NO U FGT. Her immense social ineptitude and anxiety is essentially her disability; just as Hisao will have to adjust to Lilly being blind or Shizune being deafmute or Rin having no arms, he will have to change for Hanako's sake as well.
Would you say that having to learn sign language and never letting someone who can't hear you out of your sight while in public places isn't worth it, even if it means having a happy relationship with that person? Or that having to do all the physical labor and plenty of other tasks for a girl with no arms isn't worth it either? Or that never letting your blind girlfriend out of earshot... well, you get the point.

Emi has no disability that's why she's not poplar.

[G3n0c1de]

Emi has no disability that's why she's not poplar.

Wut.

Emi's not popular because the writing in her path never had any inklings of romance. Especially her ending. But saying that you'd like someone more if they were more disabled... that just sounds horrible.

[scott1and]

In response to the rather heated (and, strangely for us, rather deep) argument about changing ones self for another, I just want to say that this can go either way. For example, I think acting a bit calmer and such around an extra shy person such as Hanako isn't really a bad thing, as it allows them to have more social contact and have, lets be honest, a nice time with another person, which may not usually be possible. The same goes for a deaf person, such as Shizune. Altering the way you communicate slightly to accommodate someone deaf not only lets them have more contact and join the conversation, it also shows that at the very least you care enough about them to do so.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are obstacles such as belief. For example, most people will not be willing to change their religion for another person, and you may not become a vegetarian just because your significant other or friend is. This is because these are things that make up your whole life, rather than a small aspect of it, and most human beings will not have to, and indeed should not be expected to, change this part of them.

The difference in the two ends of the argument is that humans are open to the age old concept of compromise. There are things human are willing to change for the sake of others, and there are things we are not. This is a fundamental aspect of life, and is essential for people to co-exist with each other. Hisao changing slightly for Hanako (or for that matter, any of the girls) is done so because he chooses to do so. He compromises for Hanako by changing a small part of him he does not mind doing so simply to be a nice person and talk to the shy girl at the back of the class. Also he will likely converse with Shizune by a means other than what he is used to because he is willing compromise; he will learn sign or write his conversation down because he is willing to compromise his way of communicating so Shizune will be able to converse with him, something she would be unable to do with this compromise of his.

I just think the whole notion of people changing to suit others as a bad things is a bit one sided. I just don't see how changing a small part of you for the sake of giving someone else an easier time is a bad thing. Granted, changing all of what you are for someone is a ridiculous notion, as you are no longer you as a person. But a little change to help make someone else's life a little easier or better can hardly be a bad thing.

Bloody hell, I didn't know I knew that many words, and not a single one was Scottish ^_^...and I worry we may be going of topic, despite how philosophical or thought provoking it may be. Sorry if this pushes it a bit.

[Worthington]

If Hisao was attracted to Hanako in the first place, then I doubt he's changing himself all that much.

[Yukimi]

Well, in a VN it's you who decide that XP Anyway, this is just a game, you don't necessarily need to bring reality to a game.

I just woke so if I've jsut posted sth stupid, ignore it.

[atat]

Well, in a VN it's you who decide that XP Anyway, this is just a game, you don't necessarily need to bring reality to a game.

I just woke so if I've jsut posted sth stupid, ignore it.

Reality is all pervasive, and there are no stupid posts, just trolls! No really, you sound find. Meanwhile I still haven't gone to sleep cause I'm sick and just can't get to that critical point, so if I sound crazy, well it's because I am. I am going insane from sleep deprivation.

[Xeoniriel]

Is it me or am I the only one that was genuinely attached to the calmness and serenity of the Hanako route and not in any way seeing 'white knighting' going on? I think Hisao isn't so much as trying to change Hanako as he's just trying to become friends with her. All that rereading the route showed me is that he was interested in general and merely wanted to interact with someone that looked to be in need of a friend with similar interests. Since when was being shy and timid a terrible thing? /derailstopicevenmore