Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters
moonpalace
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:53 pm

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by moonpalace » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:22 am

blackrising wrote:So, I'm not saying that it's impossible to swap their genders. I'm also not saying that I wouldn't play it. (I'd be all over it in an instant if the writing was as good as in KS)
All I'm saying is that it would just be an entirely different experience and it probably wouldn't make much sense to swap the gender of already existing characters. You might as well invent new ones.
This is what I meant to say. Sorry for the confusion.
To add to that, I'm just not sure the experience (of a genderswapped KS) could be equal to that of playing through KS (unless you were uninitiated). I wouldn't go so far as to say male Shizune etc. would be unappealing either. I only really meant I don't believe the characters would be as interesting/engaging for we who have played the game already. So in that sense I wouldn't consider it a success.

On the other hand I'm actually looking forward to the game release partly to see what, if anything, has happened with the male side characters. I'm hoping that they haven't had any development because I'm finding the idea of making a Katawa Shounen, starring them as the dates, to be more and more exciting.

Tank-Toast

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Tank-Toast » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:30 am

Fishpick wrote:
Tank-Toast wrote:^ That's what I find most interesting, how gender would change the character. What about them would be the same?
As much as I do enjoy fanart, of course. I, however, disapprove of all the ponytails I'm seeing. I don't dig long hair on dudes. Especially Man Lilly, I don't like him looking all sissy.
:(
What can I say, I'm an Army brat. I just see long hair and think, "Get a hair cut!"

Soldier

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Soldier » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:48 pm

Tank-Toast wrote: What can I say, I'm an Army brat. I just see long hair and think, "Get a hair cut!"
GET A HAIRCUT, HIPPY!

Fishpick
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:01 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Fishpick » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:50 pm

Tank-Toast wrote:
Fishpick wrote:
Tank-Toast wrote:^ That's what I find most interesting, how gender would change the character. What about them would be the same?
As much as I do enjoy fanart, of course. I, however, disapprove of all the ponytails I'm seeing. I don't dig long hair on dudes. Especially Man Lilly, I don't like him looking all sissy.
:(
What can I say, I'm an Army brat. I just see long hair and think, "Get a hair cut!"

lol I was in sea cadets as a kid. And that's one of the reasons I left. They kept telling me to cut my hair.

User avatar
Shades of Grey
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:02 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Shades of Grey » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:00 pm

@blackrising
I never said that a genderswapped version of KS would be the same experience. Indeed, it would be bizarre if it was, and I doubt anyone would expect it to be. The point of a genderswap is that its interesting to see the characters you are familiar with through the new lens of the opposite gender. That said, your example of what reaction the genderswapped people would incite in people. Well, its the job of a good writer to draw out whatever emotion is appropriate, so such a thing would have more to do with the quality of writing and narrative.

That said, why would it not make sense to swap the characters genders? Most all the characters have personalities that are easily transferred to a male version. If you are going through the trouble of basing the story on KS, why make entirely new people, and if you are making entirely new people, why bother making it based on KS? Especially seeing as there aren't any male characters to use, except for Kenji. The rest of Hisao's class being made up of cameos and other people with no personality or identity.

That said, Hanako is kind of the unlucky one in the genderswapping matter. This is because, unlike the other characters, she falls very much into the female stereotype of the shy quiet weak girl. Since "real men" aren't allowed to show emotion or be overtly weak, Hanako would have to be a fairly girly boy in the genderswap or risk just looking pitiful. The stereotype is completely ridiculous, and a good enough writer can still turn it around and make a male Hanako sympathetic, but its what culture has saddled males with. The other characters, however, have personalities that are pretty easily transferred to a male version because they don't really fall into gender specific stereotypes. Shizune, for example, is interesting because her scenes are like a fast tango because she has a strong, aggressive, competitive, hasty, and playful personality. If the male version could still give the same feel in his scenes, there isn't any reason why it couldn't be as enjoyable. The other characters are about the same. Misha would still be a loud and good natured person, Lilly would still be a refined gentleman/woman, Rin would still be a cloudcookolander with a penchant for non-sequetors, and Emi would still be an energetic and excitable sportsman with an absentminded streak. Whats really interesting about KS girls is that they (with the exception of hanako) are not exceptionally "girly". Thats not to say they don't act like girls, but they aren't girl stereotypes. Thats also why, with a good writer, they would still be fun to read about as boys.
Light and Dark
Good and Evil
Right and Wrong
taken from afar they blend together
and the world appears
all in shades of grey

Fishpick
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:01 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Fishpick » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:50 am

Shades of Grey wrote:@blackrising

That said, why would it not make sense to swap the characters genders? Most all the characters have personalities that are easily transferred to a male version. If you are going through the trouble of basing the story on KS, why make entirely new people, and if you are making entirely new people, why bother making it based on KS? Especially seeing as there aren't any male characters to use, except for Kenji. The rest of Hisao's class being made up of cameos and other people with no personality or identity.
Well, they could easily develop the others into people with a personality for a sequel. Or introduce male students from other classes. Or both. And why? If they were making a new cast of characters, why make it based on KS? Perhaps because they like the school environment. Set it in the same school with different students? Why not? The staff would be the same. The school culture would be similar. Star a new female character with a different disability. Introduce new male characters with unique disabilities. Tell a new story set in Yamaku High. Personally, I think it would be more interesting than playing a game with gender-swapped versions. Although it would still be interesting to see, I'd only want the gender-swapped spin-off to be short. Just to see how they'd act, but a full game with essentially the same characters would be pretty dull.

However, if I were in the devs shoes, I would not be making a new KS game anytime soon. If I were to make anything, I'd want to make a whole new game. Something original. After 5 years of KS, it'd be time for something fresh. And if 4leaf studios decides to stick together and make another game, whatever it is, I'd be all for it.

Drkstrm
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Drkstrm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:14 am

blackrising wrote:Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
I take offence to that...

User avatar
Worthington
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:20 pm
Location: The Grid
Contact:

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Worthington » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:30 am

Drkstrm wrote:
blackrising wrote:Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
I take offence to that...
Seconded.
Got my feet in the air and my head on the ground.

Kenji=Rin>Akira>Hideaki>Hachisame>Lilly>Takashi>Miki>Emi>Nurse>Misha>Mutou>Shizune>Yuuko>Nomiya>Hanako

Worthington's Wondrous Writeshop
Magnesium Ninja Studios

onethousandyen
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:13 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by onethousandyen » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:24 pm

blackrising wrote:Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
Well, a guy with Rin's personality seems like somebody I'd really enjoy becoming friends with, perhaps even more. I'm a bit of a freak myself and I'm being avoided by some people… but hey, that's the good part about it! I'd love to be MaleRin's girlfriend ^_^

Also: MaleHanako would be a bit of… permanently pissed. That's the nearest to the right meaning of what I think. Boys do hide shyness behind arrogance… and similar things. Don't we?
Image <- coincidence? °L_°

User avatar
Shades of Grey
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:02 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Shades of Grey » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:56 pm

@Fishpick

The problem with cloning KS and sticking in new characters is that....well, its no longer unique. A game that mimes KS, but just has new people is a lot like making a new zelda game, but replacing link with Bill the swordsman, Zelda with her cousin Penny the Princess, and Gannon with Jerry the local bandit. Congrats, you just made a zelda clone. No one will be interested in it because its a rip off of zelda. In the same way, any KS clone with new characters is going to feel like an offshoot of KS, no matter what extra you do to spice things up. If you really have enough new ideas and tricks to make the hypothetical new KS different and better than the old KS, then you may as well put a bit more effort in and make a new setting and premise. Then, voila, a new game entirely. A genderbend, however, is interesting specifically because its a swap in gender of the original cast. Half of the amusement of the idea is seeing all the familiar characters turned on their heads and put in the opposite gender roll.
Light and Dark
Good and Evil
Right and Wrong
taken from afar they blend together
and the world appears
all in shades of grey

User avatar
Worthington
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:20 pm
Location: The Grid
Contact:

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Worthington » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:02 pm

Shades of Grey wrote:@Fishpick

The problem with cloning KS and sticking in new characters is that....well, its no longer unique. A game that mimes KS, but just has new people is a lot like making a new zelda game, but replacing link with Bill the swordsman, Zelda with her cousin Penny the Princess, and Gannon with Jerry the local bandit. Congrats, you just made a zelda clone. No one will be interested in it because its a rip off of zelda. In the same way, any KS clone with new characters is going to feel like an offshoot of KS, no matter what extra you do to spice things up. If you really have enough new ideas and tricks to make the hypothetical new KS different and better than the old KS, then you may as well put a bit more effort in and make a new setting and premise. Then, voila, a new game entirely. A genderbend, however, is interesting specifically because its a swap in gender of the original cast. Half of the amusement of the idea is seeing all the familiar characters turned on their heads and put in the opposite gender roll.
But...it's a VN. A "clone" doesn't apply. If there were "clones" in VNs, about 99% of them would be clones of whichever the fuck the first VN was. The strength of KS is it's characters, actually that's literally the only thing KS is, so as long as the new characters are as interesting and well-written than it really makes no matter.
Got my feet in the air and my head on the ground.

Kenji=Rin>Akira>Hideaki>Hachisame>Lilly>Takashi>Miki>Emi>Nurse>Misha>Mutou>Shizune>Yuuko>Nomiya>Hanako

Worthington's Wondrous Writeshop
Magnesium Ninja Studios

User avatar
Erybis
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Erybis » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:32 pm

blackrising wrote:^
I understand what you mean, but I still stand by my point.
I think the best example is still Hanako. Her extreme shyness is probably the trait that makes most of her fans love her so much. It makes her cute and wakes a protective, white-knight streak in the player. Now let's imagine Hanako was male, but still retained her shyness. Of course it would express itself differently. He'd still be quiet and spend all his time in the library. Maybe he'd even run away from the player, although probably in a calmer, more subtle manner than "IGOTTAGODOSOMETHING". Maybe instead of being the wallflower, he'd be the loner guy who shows everyone the cold shoulder. (Have't seen that one in Otome games before.../sarcasm)
Or maybe he does seem a little bit girly.
Anyway, the point is, what kind of reaction would that cause in the player?
Does it make him seem cute?
Does it wake a protective/white-knight streak?

Well, it probably depends on the person. But I know that for me, it doesn't. So genderswapping makes a character inevitably different in such a way that it may invoke completly different reactions in the player. (A guy with Shizune's or Rin's personality would still creep me out...but that's just a personal preference.)
So, I'm not saying that it's impossible to swap their genders. I'm also not saying that I wouldn't play it. (I'd be all over it in an instant if the writing was as good as in KS)
All I'm saying is that it would just be an entirely different experience and it probably wouldn't make much sense to swap the gender of already existing characters. You might as well invent new ones.
Seeing as Hanako is shy and extremely scarred, both physically and mentally, I see a PTSD thing going on with her male version. Aggressive and nuts, staying by himself because he's afraid of people. Any attempt to force him out of his shell would result in a violent reaction. Thus, the "gentle" approach would still work.

User avatar
blackrising
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:31 am
Location: under your bed...
Contact:

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by blackrising » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:49 pm

Worthington wrote:
Drkstrm wrote:
blackrising wrote:Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
I take offence to that...
Seconded.
Oh, come on. It's nothing to be offended about, jut the cold, harsh truth. It may be not nice, but accurate. Then again, many VN characters would probably seen as weird or freaky in real life, but are adored by fans.
Misha worshipper to the core. WAHAHAHA~

Misha>Rin=Hanako=Lilly>>Shizune>Emi

Since I was no bigger than a weavil they've been saying I was evil
That if "bad" was a boot that I'd fit it
That I'm a wicked young lady, but I've been trying hard lately
O fuck it! I'm a monster! I admit it!

mercenary200
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:03 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by mercenary200 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:29 am

this is what I would imagine changes to be for hanako/lily

Hanako - instead of being really shy, a manly sort of obnoxious and really bad with women. only person who can stand him is lily
example: library scene he gets angry (stubs his toe, cant find a book) when confronted by protagonist he gets red in the face and leaves.
Lily - fiercely independent and hates rules, a poet and a lover of coffee (his favorite room would be the only one with a coffee maker)
example: sitting in the room with one leg over the other enjoying the sunlight poring through the window with one arm on the back of the chair and a cup of coffee in the other.

Razzmatazz
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:53 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Razzmatazz » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:37 am

For me a gender swap of Hanako could still be the shy antisocial, class skipping loner and be manly. All that would need to be changed I reckon is just instead of being so insecure that he runs from everyone he could instead be more bitter and jaded, more hates people looking at him so he angrily lashes out at those who try to talk to him for too long. Still obsessed with books, they could be an escape for his bitterness, and that could be how our heroine makes a connection with him.

Post Reply