Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

A forum for general discussion of the game: Open to all punters
User avatar
Shades of Grey
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:02 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Shades of Grey » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Worthington wrote: But...it's a VN. A "clone" doesn't apply. If there were "clones" in VNs, about 99% of them would be clones of whichever the fuck the first VN was. The strength of KS is it's characters, actually that's literally the only thing KS is, so as long as the new characters are as interesting and well-written than it really makes no matter.
By clone, I meant a quite literal clone. Everything from Yamaku academy to the nurse, to the time period being before the cultural festival. A complete lift of the setting. Your statement actually reinforces my point as well. KS is its characters, if you cut out the main girls, then why hang on to the skin of Yamaku? The only supporting character with anything like an interesting personality is Kenji, so a game keeping the framing of Yamaku but devoid of the main girls would only really make sense if it were about Kenji (which might actually be really awesome). If you make an entirely new cast, and they are well written enough, then there isn't really any reason to still put them in Yamaku. That would make it feel like a copy even if its unique enough to stand on its own. Heck, it could be set in SPACE, and if it was well written enough, it would be just as good (or more so since its in space).

On the subject of Rin. She is already considered a bit of a weirdo. the "problem in your pants" statement was a very gender specific one though. It was said in the context of a female Rin to a male Hisao, and doesn't make as much sense in any other combination of those genders. That specific incident is an example of something that doesn't and wouldn't be carried over to a genderswap. That said, what makes Rin interesting is her nature as a cloudcookolander and her penchant for non-sequetors. Thats what makes her dialogues fun, if hard to follow at times, and that would still be true if she was a man, woman, or squid fish monster.

On the subject of Hanako. Why can't male Hanako still be Hanako? She is a deathly shy, shrinking violet with a self image complex. Why can't a man be like that? Because its not manly? I would say that attitude is rather misandrist, in much the same way that claiming Shizune's strong and competitive personality isn't womanly would be considered misogynistic. Girls in media have slowly expanded to encompass everything from shrinking violet to action hero. Why, then, must men only get saddled with only the action hero end? As long as the writing is done well enough, I see no reason why male Hanako couldn't keep his original personality.
Light and Dark
Good and Evil
Right and Wrong
taken from afar they blend together
and the world appears
all in shades of grey

User avatar
blackrising
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:31 am
Location: under your bed...
Contact:

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by blackrising » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:23 pm

Razzmatazz wrote:For me a gender swap of Hanako could still be the shy antisocial, class skipping loner and be manly. All that would need to be changed I reckon is just instead of being so insecure that he runs from everyone he could instead be more bitter and jaded, more hates people looking at him so he angrily lashes out at those who try to talk to him for too long. Still obsessed with books, they could be an escape for his bitterness, and that could be how our heroine makes a connection with him.
Which would make M!Hanako like every second LI in any Otome game of your choice out there.
Misha worshipper to the core. WAHAHAHA~

Misha>Rin=Hanako=Lilly>>Shizune>Emi

Since I was no bigger than a weavil they've been saying I was evil
That if "bad" was a boot that I'd fit it
That I'm a wicked young lady, but I've been trying hard lately
O fuck it! I'm a monster! I admit it!

moonpalace
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:53 pm

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by moonpalace » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:32 pm

I actually agree with everything you've said, including your description of the male versions of the girls. Yes, you can create interesting characters regardless of whether they're genderbent or not.
Shades of Grey wrote:By clone, I meant a quite literal clone. Everything from Yamaku academy to the nurse, to the time period being before the cultural festival. A complete lift of the setting.
Who said the game would have to start a week before the festival?
Shades of Grey wrote:
Worthington wrote:The strength of KS is it's characters, actually that's literally the only thing KS is, so as long as the new characters are as interesting and well-written than it really makes no matter.
Your statement actually reinforces my point as well. KS is its characters, if you cut out the main girls, then why hang on to the skin of Yamaku?
Why can't you have guys with new storylines in the original setting? Are you thinking of the same spurious excuse for not making Katawa Shounen set in Yamaku as for not making Katawa Shoujo-genderbent, "It wouldn't be interesting - it's pointless,"? I'm sorry, I genuinely don't understand.

User avatar
Otakumon
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:01 am
Location: 3rd rock from the sun

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Otakumon » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:13 pm

Shades of Grey wrote:On the subject of Rin. She is already considered a bit of a weirdo. the "problem in your pants" statement was a very gender specific one though. It was said in the context of a female Rin to a male Hisao, and doesn't make as much sense in any other combination of those genders. That specific incident is an example of something that doesn't and wouldn't be carried over to a genderswap. That said, what makes Rin interesting is her nature as a cloudcookolander and her penchant for non-sequetors. Thats what makes her dialogues fun, if hard to follow at times, and that would still be true if she was a man, woman, or squid fish monster.
I agree. I imagine the genderswapped version of that encounter would have Manrin asking Shesao if her bra had three cups. 8)

Fishpick
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:01 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Fishpick » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:55 am

Shades of Grey wrote:
Worthington wrote: But...it's a VN. A "clone" doesn't apply. If there were "clones" in VNs, about 99% of them would be clones of whichever the fuck the first VN was. The strength of KS is it's characters, actually that's literally the only thing KS is, so as long as the new characters are as interesting and well-written than it really makes no matter.
By clone, I meant a quite literal clone. Everything from Yamaku academy to the nurse, to the time period being before the cultural festival. A complete lift of the setting. Your statement actually reinforces my point as well. KS is its characters, if you cut out the main girls, then why hang on to the skin of Yamaku? The only supporting character with anything like an interesting personality is Kenji, so a game keeping the framing of Yamaku but devoid of the main girls would only really make sense if it were about Kenji (which might actually be really awesome). If you make an entirely new cast, and they are well written enough, then there isn't really any reason to still put them in Yamaku. That would make it feel like a copy even if its unique enough to stand on its own. Heck, it could be set in SPACE, and if it was well written enough, it would be just as good (or more so since its in space).

On the subject of Rin. She is already considered a bit of a weirdo. the "problem in your pants" statement was a very gender specific one though. It was said in the context of a female Rin to a male Hisao, and doesn't make as much sense in any other combination of those genders. That specific incident is an example of something that doesn't and wouldn't be carried over to a genderswap. That said, what makes Rin interesting is her nature as a cloudcookolander and her penchant for non-sequetors. Thats what makes her dialogues fun, if hard to follow at times, and that would still be true if she was a man, woman, or squid fish monster.

On the subject of Hanako. Why can't male Hanako still be Hanako? She is a deathly shy, shrinking violet with a self image complex. Why can't a man be like that? Because its not manly? I would say that attitude is rather misandrist, in much the same way that claiming Shizune's strong and competitive personality isn't womanly would be considered misogynistic. Girls in media have slowly expanded to encompass everything from shrinking violet to action hero. Why, then, must men only get saddled with only the action hero end? As long as the writing is done well enough, I see no reason why male Hanako couldn't keep his original personality.
Every school has a unique culture. Having an entirely new cast of students attending the school, let's say, five years later would be interesting. We can see what's changed in that time, and tell a new story. The only returning characters will be the staff. I personally like seeing a familiar setting with entirely new characters. It feels new and nostalgic at the same time.

I still don't think I'd be interested in a gender-swapped spin-off for more than a few hours. They'd have to change the characters quite a bit to keep me interested. This is the main reason I'd pretty to see Hanako change into a brooding loner, for example. Just so that it'd be different. They'd need to make some major changes if they're going to warrant another play through. And if everyone's personalities remain largely intact, then it'll feel too similar.

User avatar
CindehQ
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by CindehQ » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:01 am

Wow, this topic got quite a bit more responses then expected. Especially love whoever's been posting the art. Sadly I lack the artistic ability to bring my interpretation of these characters to life so...

Image

I'd play this. Just sayin.
Last edited by CindehQ on Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
I call my avatar Emiyagi.
Like Emi.
If Emi were cool.

Drkstrm
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Drkstrm » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:51 am

blackrising wrote:
Drkstrm wrote:
blackrising wrote:Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
I take offence to that...
Oh, come on. It's nothing to be offended about, jut the cold, harsh truth. It may be not nice, but accurate. Then again, many VN characters would probably seen as weird or freaky in real life, but are adored by fans.
It's totally something to be offended about. It's wrong. It's cold. It's harsh. It's false.

User avatar
Erybis
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Erybis » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:13 am

blackrising wrote: Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
You say freak, like it's a derogatory term. I know many "freaks" that are superior to most "normals", and are one of the few minorities of humanity who's company I genuinely enjoy, for their different view on the world. "Normals" can get run over for I all care, for they are despicable in their hatred for the new, much like you. Sorry if I came off as insulting, but such is my manner of speaking.

yo

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by yo » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:42 pm

Erybis wrote:
blackrising wrote: Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
You say freak, like it's a derogatory term. I know many "freaks" that are superior to most "normals", and are one of the few minorities of humanity who's company I genuinely enjoy, for their different view on the world. "Normals" can get run over for I all care, for they are despicable in their hatred for the new, much like you. Sorry if I came off as insulting, but such is my manner of speaking.
Cool, I was just thinking that what this topic on gender bending was missing was a bullshit judgemental "I laugh because you're all the same" rant.

User avatar
Erybis
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Erybis » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:30 pm

yo wrote:
Erybis wrote:
blackrising wrote: Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
You say freak, like it's a derogatory term. I know many "freaks" that are superior to most "normals", and are one of the few minorities of humanity who's company I genuinely enjoy, for their different view on the world. "Normals" can get run over for I all care, for they are despicable in their hatred for the new, much like you. Sorry if I came off as insulting, but such is my manner of speaking.
Cool, I was just thinking that what this topic on gender bending was missing was a bullshit judgemental "I laugh because you're all the same" rant.
You misinterpreted what I said, sadly. Look into the meaning of the words before you label something as cliche, OK?

User avatar
Worthington
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:20 pm
Location: The Grid
Contact:

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Worthington » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:19 am

CindehQ wrote: [img]

I'd play this. Just sayin.
Oh god yes.
Got my feet in the air and my head on the ground.

Kenji=Rin>Akira>Hideaki>Hachisame>Lilly>Takashi>Miki>Emi>Nurse>Misha>Mutou>Shizune>Yuuko>Nomiya>Hanako

Worthington's Wondrous Writeshop
Magnesium Ninja Studios

User avatar
Erybis
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Erybis » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:09 am

Worthington wrote:
CindehQ wrote: [img]

I'd play this. Just sayin.
Oh god yes.
I saw that, and felt sorry for female Hisao. She better be made out some hard stuff, or she'll shatter like glass by a jackhammer.

User avatar
CindehQ
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by CindehQ » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:40 am

Erybis wrote:
Worthington wrote:
CindehQ wrote: [img]

I'd play this. Just sayin.
Oh god yes.
I saw that, and felt sorry for female Hisao. She better be made out some hard stuff, or she'll shatter like glass by a jackhammer.
No one can resist the charms of Man-Lily. :lol:
Last edited by CindehQ on Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I call my avatar Emiyagi.
Like Emi.
If Emi were cool.

User avatar
Erybis
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by Erybis » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:18 am

Scary stuff. Does anyone know if we will be treated to any holidays in game? Christmas sex, Halloween sex, Birthday sex, Valentine's Day sex, Friday sex, etc? Just getting THOSE questions out of the way before we get on to the actual holiday event.

User avatar
blackrising
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:31 am
Location: under your bed...
Contact:

Re: Genderbender: Katawa Shonen

Post by blackrising » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:36 am

Erybis wrote:
blackrising wrote: Rin's weirdness? A guy with Rin's personality would probably be regarded as a total freak and avoided by boys and girls alike. In fact, I would be creeped out if a guy accused me of having a 'problem in my pants'.
You say freak, like it's a derogatory term. I know many "freaks" that are superior to most "normals", and are one of the few minorities of humanity who's company I genuinely enjoy, for their different view on the world. "Normals" can get run over for I all care, for they are despicable in their hatred for the new, much like you. Sorry if I came off as insulting, but such is my manner of speaking.
Sure, go on and judge me as if you know what's going on in my mind.
I said 'freak', not because it is something I regard as inferior to 'normal', but because that's exactly the word that would go through many people's minds. I did NOT insult people who are 'different'. And if it came off as that, I'm genuinly sorry.

But what I do not feel sorry for is saying this: You are a hypocrite. You accuse me of using derogatory terms when I say "freak", but at the same time you insult those people you call "normals" and prove that you're just as judgmental as those you deem 'inferior'. People are seen as 'freaks', because people like you seem so damn focused on drawing a clear line between what is 'normal' and what is 'different'. I harbor no hatred for the new, but even if I did, your hatred for those you've labeled 'normal' would be the exact same thing.

So don't act as if categorizing people was as simple as that and don't think you have any idea who I am. I am not normal. I am not different. I'm just me. And maybe you should start thinking of people as individuals and not things you can stick into a drawer.
Misha worshipper to the core. WAHAHAHA~

Misha>Rin=Hanako=Lilly>>Shizune>Emi

Since I was no bigger than a weavil they've been saying I was evil
That if "bad" was a boot that I'd fit it
That I'm a wicked young lady, but I've been trying hard lately
O fuck it! I'm a monster! I admit it!

Post Reply