Emi + Phantom limbs =

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lurkmoar

Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by lurkmoar » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:14 pm

(I think this is the right place...)
Ohai, long time lurker, that's probably not going to change.
I'm currently taking a Neuropsychology course, and our reading includes the book Phantoms of the Brain by Ramachandran, excellent book about how the brain messes up.
Anyway, in the first chapter on phantom limbs, he writes about feedback he got from laypersons after he published his first findings about phantom limbs and phantom pain, particularly from amputees, and mentions two foot amputees.
Uh, I'll use the quotes directly from the book.

First, from a woman:
...I lost my left leg below the knee and I've had a phantom limb ever since... Something really strange happened to me after the amputation that didn't make sense. Every time I had sex I experienced these strange sensations in my phantom foot. I didn't dare tell anybody because it's so weird. But when I saw your diagrams, that in the brain the foot is next to the genitals, it became instantly clear to me.
I'm assuming she was being modest, because he then gets feedback from a man:
...I lost my leg below the knee about two months ago but there's still something I don't understand... Every time I have sexual intercourse, I experience sensations in my phantom foot... You see, I actually experience my orgasm in my foot. And therefore it's much bigger than it used to be because it's no longer confined to my genitals.
Ramachandran then goes on to emphasize that patients are unlikely to make such a thing up, because it's just so bizarre to the average person.
And these people are just single amputees...

...So yeah, has the idea of Emi having phantom limbs ever been considered? (I did a search and there was only one mention of phantom limbs, but it might have happened on irc...)
If it has then I'll stfunoobgtfolurkmoar and disappear in shame.

TL;DR, Emi+phantom limbs = possibility for MASSIVE orgasms FROM HER FEET.

Just a thought.

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EternalLurker
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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by EternalLurker » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:24 pm

Phantom pain in lost limbs is fairly common (I know three amputees and two of them have reported that; the third I just haven't asked), but phantom orgasms in non-erogenous amputated areas? That sounds extraordinarily rare.

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Xuan
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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Xuan » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:53 pm

It's probably not that they're experiencing orgasm at their feet, but the orgasm creating that strange feeling of something almost akin to orgasm. I would suppose that it could be the strongest phantom sensation a person could feel since orgasm is the height of physical feelings.

Or maybe because they lost part of their body so their body is interpreting it in a strange way that feels like orgasm at the point of contact. I'm sure the man's feeling pretty down everytime he has sex, the feeling that he might die of overpouring.
" It would be hard to believe I was nearly killed by a love confession."

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Ozymil » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:20 pm

Does that mean that Emi can be stimulated by having the ends of her legs touched, or is this orgasmic sensation felt only in the "phantom limb"? On a similar note, does this concept apply to Rin as well?

But MASSIVE orgasms you say... so Emi's a squealer... Mmmm.....
Donnes-moi le chocolat, Hisao! Gib mir die Schokolade, Hisao! Dame el chocolate, Hisao! Dammi il cioccolato, Hisao! Ge mig choklad, Hisao! Giv mig chokolade, Hisao! 私にチョコレートを与える, 久夫! Daj mi czekoladę, Hisao! Geef me de chocola, Hisao! (Thanks for the Dutch ver. Leotrak) Bigyan mo ako ng chocolate, Hisao! Geef mij de chocolade, Hisao! Дайте мне шоколад, Хисао! Dá-me o chocolate, Hisao!

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by lurkmoar » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:49 pm

Perhaps I should do a little more prefacing. This is going to be a little long, so if you TL;DR, just accept that it works.

It's estimated that 60-80% of people with missing or amputated limbs feel phantom sensations of any sort, and only about half of the people who have phantom sensations feel pain.

Besides pain, phantom sensations can manifest as other things like heat, pressure, tingling, that the limb is moving, etc.
Ramachandran postulated that this is directly correlated with the body map of the somatosensory cortex. The different extremities are lain out in a particular order.
So when something is amputated, the neurons that are associated with it go dark, and are quickly remapped to respond to stimulation from the surrounding areas on the body map of the somatosensory cortex.

So, for example, Ramachandran worked with a man who had lost his left arm. By stimulating various parts of his body with a Q-tip, they began to find places that also corresponded to feeling on the missing arm, meaning that when Ramachandran touched one part of the man's face, the man also reported feeling sensation in his missing arm.
They eventually were able to map out the man's missing left hand on the left side of the man's face and on what was left of the man's upper left arm. This matched perfectly with the body map of the somatosensory cortex, as the face and the upper arm are on either side of where the left hand would be. So when the left hand goes dark, the neurons are remapped to face and upper arm neurons.

So Ramachandran postulates that in the case of phantom pain, it only occurs when these other parts of the body (face and upper arm) are stimulated in some way, (talking, smiling, grimacing even moving) that is then interpreted as pain. Or heat or tingling or whatever.

Anyway, in the case of amputated legs, above the feet on the body map of the somatosensory cortex is the trunk/torso of the body, which is boring, and directly below, are the genitals. Feet go missing, corresponding neurons go dark and are remapped to surrounding body parts on the body map... you get the idea.
So it isn't inconceivably rare that such a thing happens in people with amputated legs, albeit it would probably be uncommon for them to feel erotic sensations.
But of course, we're operating in the realm of fiction, it might just be that Emi got lucky, very lucky.

What this means for Emi is that vaginal sex could possibly be like giving a simultaneous phantom footjob (though it might be a very very weird feeling discombobulated footjob).
This does not mean that the amputated ends of her legs suddenly become erogenous, just that she can experience (if you pardon the expression) toe-curling sensations in her phantom feet, which are not there. This would be on top of her regular orgasm. The book does not go into detail how it feels to have an orgasm (-like experience if you insist) in your foot, but yeah, I think the feeling stacks.
Note that this is only neurological pain/pleasure, nothing about the body actually changes, just how it feels.
No word on whether menstrual cramps are also felt in the phantom feet. That would suck.
Hisao would not feel any different, he would not get the bonus of a phantom footjob.

This concept does not apply to Rin if she were to have phantom limbs, unfortunately, as surrounding the arms on the body map of the somatosensory cortex is the face and the upper arm.
However, this could mean that with phantom limbs, she could feel that a brush on the cheek would be a brush on her hand, or squeezing her cheeks would be like holding hands (I'm completely extrapolating at this point, so this might not be the case at all).
Of course, there is also the possibility that Rin is just into having her stumps played with, she's kinda weird like that.

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Minister of Gloom
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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Minister of Gloom » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:05 pm

Is Rin capable of feeling phantom sensations in her arms? She never had any, after all.
I am not a doctor, though.
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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Smoku » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:14 pm

Minister of Gloom wrote:Is Rin capable of feeling phantom sensations in her arms? She never had any, after all.
I am not a doctor, though.
I heard of an old veteran who had lost his arm during a war. Since that time he grew to be a very annoying person. Some doctor had a theory that it's about his hand, so he made an experiment: He asked the man to put his still attached, healthy hand in a box, with an opening for the hand. Inside the box was a mirror, place ideally in the middle of it. So that the man saw a reflection of his healthy hand in it. He also inserted what was left of his other hand in the other opening of the box, which created an optic illusion of him having both hands, if you'd take a look inside the box.

Then the doctor asked the man to clench his healthy fist as hard as he could and then let go and also watch the hand and it's reflection during the process. The man did so and after that he reported he stopped feeling a kind of major pain which was tormenting him for ages. Probably a phantom hand pain.

BUT Rin is different, right. She never had hands, so... I don't think it would be possible for her.

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Merlyn_LeRoy » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:15 pm

Ozymil wrote:Does that mean that Emi can be stimulated by having the ends of her legs touched, or is this orgasmic sensation felt only in the "phantom limb"? On a similar note, does this concept apply to Rin as well?
Certainly possible, considering this story:
Film editor Steel also revealed Heather, who lost her left leg below the knee in a motorbike accident in 1993, went wild with pleasure when he massaged her amputated limb.
He said: "Heather has a very unusual erogenous zone - her stump. I used to massage one particular area and it gave her an orgasm."
For what it's worth, I remember reading that in people who are paralyzed below the waist tend to develop a new erogenous zone at the transition between where they can and can't feel sensation.

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Merlyn_LeRoy » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:18 pm

Smoku wrote:
Minister of Gloom wrote:Is Rin capable of feeling phantom sensations in her arms? She never had any, after all.
I am not a doctor, though.
...
BUT Rin is different, right. She never had hands, so... I don't think it would be possible for her.
It can happen, though it doesn't appear to be as common:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9313643
It is widely believed that people who are congenitally limb-deficient or suffer a limb amputation at an early age do not experience phantom limbs. The present study reports on a sample of 125 people with missing limbs and documents phantom experiences in 41 individuals who were either born limb-deficient (n = 15) or underwent amputation before the age of 6 years (n = 26). These cases provide evidence that phantom limbs are experienced by at least 20% of congenitally limb-deficient subjects and by 50% of subjects who underwent amputations before the age of 6 years.

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Guest » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:13 pm

Merlyn_LeRoy wrote:
Smoku wrote:
Minister of Gloom wrote:Is Rin capable of feeling phantom sensations in her arms? She never had any, after all.
I am not a doctor, though.
...
BUT Rin is different, right. She never had hands, so... I don't think it would be possible for her.
It can happen, though it doesn't appear to be as common
Rin's certifiable, how could you tell if she actually had phantom sensations or if (for example) she just decided to convince herself that she felt them?

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Wrench Wench » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:25 pm

Huh makes me think of my partner. He has this really nasty scar (more gouge) missing out of his back next to his spine and if you rub it then it just makes him go nuts especially near the lower back.

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by EternalLurker » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:21 pm

lurkmoar wrote:No word on whether menstrual cramps are also felt in the phantom feet. That would suck.
D:



D:

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by vermithrx » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:32 pm

Love Ramachandran! Allow me to throw a bit of fuel on the fires of speculation you've kindled. :wink:

A short, very simplified version from the horse's mouth (skip to ~9:20).

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Darroth
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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Darroth » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:01 pm

lurkmoar wrote:I'm assuming she was being modest, because he then gets feedback from a man:
...I lost my leg below the knee about two months ago but there's still something I don't understand... Every time I have sexual intercourse, I experience sensations in my phantom foot... You see, I actually experience my orgasm in my foot. And therefore it's much bigger than it used to be because it's no longer confined to my genitals.
Shopping trip time! Hacksaw and Vodka.
Last edited by Silentcook on Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Forum time! Use multiquoting elsewhere.

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Re: Emi + Phantom limbs =

Post by Wrench Wench » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:04 pm

Darroth wrote:Shopping trip time! Hacksaw and Vodka.
Ok that just caused me to get a bit creeped out. Not by you or what you said but what my partner said when he saw that comment. He was passing by and looked over my shoulder, read that and said "Tell him cannabis works better but get someone else to do the cuttin"

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