Blindness cured...

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Captain Niggawatts
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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Captain Niggawatts » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:45 pm

dilleuxlepaire wrote: I saw a movie, once. Can't recall the title.

Some scientist(s) find(s) a cure for blindness, and test(s) it on a guy. He's happy, and all, at first, but then shit hits the fan. He can't make any difference between pictures and objects(Can't make the difference between an apple and the picture of said apple.). He keep on crashing into windows. He also have a hard time when dealing with distances(He will analyze a far away apple as a smaller apple.). Now imagine him, in a city, waiting to cross a street flowing with cars.

Bliss, isn't it?


I don't mind with science finding a cure, as long as it isn't FOR GREAT PERFECTION OF HUMANITY.
My god, that man's life must have been hell, to suddenly have an extra sense, and not be able to contend with it. If only there were some way to, perhaps, toggle vision so that he could switch back to his previous state of using only his other 4 senses to view the world, until he got used to vision.

I pray for the day in which scientists will invent something, perhaps, a lid, which can be affixed over the eye in such a scenario.
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are egotistical faggots" - Captain Niggawatts

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dilleuxlepaire
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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by dilleuxlepaire » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:36 pm

Captain Niggawatts wrote:I pray for the day in which scientists will invent something, perhaps, a lid, which can be affixed over the eye in such a scenario.
Heh. But it was a movie after all. Would not have been the same with the lids.
Cheers.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Notguest » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:45 pm

It's not a matter of suddenly gaining a sense that's the problem.

For congenitally blind people, their brain missed the critical period during infancy to develop visual circuitry, hence their brains cannot interpret visual images, leading to the problems you mentioned.

For someone who was blinded after say, 8 months, it would be hard to adapt, but certainly possible.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:14 am

Whether it can be 'cured' or not is really a matter of just why they're blind in the first place. If it's simply damage to the eye itself, with all the sections of the brain and nervous system relating to sight still intact, then it's mostly a matter of science advancing enough that we can reliably replace the damaged tissue. That's basically what happened with the tooth-eye; they've McGyvered a new eye to replace the damaged one.

If the blindness is a result of damage to the brain, then there's really not a whole lot that can be done. Even if their eyes are perfect, they don't have the right brain-stuff to process the visual information. Like having all the best hardware and no software to run on it. Also, the issue of people who've been blind from birth comes in; if they're an adult, it might be a really bad idea to give them full-eyesight suddenly, since that's a whole new universe they've never had before. They'd have no reference point; nothing to prepare them for it. Things like color, brightness, etc., all those things are concepts a blind-from-birth person really has no way of truly understanding. I wonder if they even translate color into braille when they're making books; it'd be like reading a book where someone keeps talking about smission. What's smission? I don't know!

Think about if you were suddenly given the ability to read other people's thoughts. Sure, it sounds neat, but that's because we're conditioned by movies, TV, etc. to think of telepathy as 'hearing voices' in your head. What you'd really get is all the chaos and multi-layered complexity of your own head, with no control and no context. Now imagine that you couldn't turn it off. It gets even worse the more range you give it, and the more people you can 'read' at once. At least a formerly-blind person could just close their eyes or something. Maybe you could start off slow, and work your way up to full vision.

I'm also curious about just when in a child's life they realize that they're "missing" a sense. If you're born without hearing, you probably wouldn't realize there's anything wrong with you until you learn enough language for someone to tell you there is. Same with blindness, and again with my point above about not having concepts of color, etc.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Notguest » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:09 am

Mr. Shine wrote:I wonder if they even translate color into braille when they're making books; it'd be like reading a book where someone keeps talking about smission. What's smission? I don't know!
While they may not be able to have the subjective experience of color, they can certainly understand what color is.
You have almost certainly never experienced sustained microgravity, but it is still important to learn about, right?
Think about how weird the dialog in SciFi books would be if someone decided to excise all references to microgavity from your copy.

And yes, I think it is pretty common for parents to not tell their children they are blind. Although once they grow to school age, it becomes impossible to hide.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Mr. Shine » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:48 am

Notguest wrote:
Mr. Shine wrote:I wonder if they even translate color into braille when they're making books; it'd be like reading a book where someone keeps talking about smission. What's smission? I don't know!
While they may not be able to have the subjective experience of color, they can certainly understand what color is.
You have almost certainly never experienced sustained microgravity, but it is still important to learn about, right?
Think about how weird the dialog in SciFi books would be if someone decided to excise all references to microgavity from your copy.
That's not the same at all. You're talking about being weightless, right? Zero-G? That's different, since zero-g is a state that is related to a state I'm already experiencing- gravity acts on me all the time, so I can simply simulate it not acting on me. Yes, I've not actually ever been weightless, but I've gone on roller-coasters and the like that simulate the sensation. (even if only for a moment.)

I'm talking about an entire sense simply being gone. Someone who is blind from birth can't know what color is, because their mental "image" (rather a bad word for that, but there's really nothing better- humans are sight oriented, and I guess that's part of what makes blindness rather terrifying to most of us) of the world doesn't contain vision. They have no way of knowing, really, what "light," "dark," "red," or "blue" mean except as something that other people have. Where would you even start? The only way I could think to explain it is "people can perceive the distance and shape of objects in the world around them using their eyes."

I can't really think of a real fictional counterpart, largely because my mental image of the world only includes five senses. I can't even imagine a sixth one...though I suppose there are sharks and fish who can sense electrical fields. That's a "sixth sense," if you will, but once again I can only speculate as to what that must be like; it's not part of how I process the world around me, so I can't truly understand what it's like. Even when writers do try to add more senses, they inevitably have to resort to co-oping words from more familiar senses so that we can make sense of them. (Like a person who can "read" peoples' auras describing them in colors, or tastes)

Now, I'm willing to admit I could be 100% wrong on any of this; it's mostly based on speculation and what little I do know about the subject. I'd love to hear from someone who knows a blind person and who could give a more informative view. :)

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Captain Niggawatts » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:06 am

Mr. Shine wrote:
Notguest wrote:
Mr. Shine wrote:I wonder if they even translate color into braille when they're making books; it'd be like reading a book where someone keeps talking about smission. What's smission? I don't know!
While they may not be able to have the subjective experience of color, they can certainly understand what color is.
You have almost certainly never experienced sustained microgravity, but it is still important to learn about, right?
Think about how weird the dialog in SciFi books would be if someone decided to excise all references to microgavity from your copy.
That's not the same at all. You're talking about being weightless, right? Zero-G? That's different, since zero-g is a state that is related to a state I'm already experiencing- gravity acts on me all the time, so I can simply simulate it not acting on me. Yes, I've not actually ever been weightless, but I've gone on roller-coasters and the like that simulate the sensation. (even if only for a moment.)

I'm talking about an entire sense simply being gone. Someone who is blind from birth can't know what color is, because their mental "image" (rather a bad word for that, but there's really nothing better- humans are sight oriented, and I guess that's part of what makes blindness rather terrifying to most of us) of the world doesn't contain vision. They have no way of knowing, really, what "light," "dark," "red," or "blue" mean except as something that other people have. Where would you even start? The only way I could think to explain it is "people can perceive the distance and shape of objects in the world around them using their eyes."

I can't really think of a real fictional counterpart, largely because my mental image of the world only includes five senses. I can't even imagine a sixth one...though I suppose there are sharks and fish who can sense electrical fields. That's a "sixth sense," if you will, but once again I can only speculate as to what that must be like; it's not part of how I process the world around me, so I can't truly understand what it's like. Even when writers do try to add more senses, they inevitably have to resort to co-oping words from more familiar senses so that we can make sense of them. (Like a person who can "read" peoples' auras describing them in colors, or tastes)

Now, I'm willing to admit I could be 100% wrong on any of this; it's mostly based on speculation and what little I do know about the subject. I'd love to hear from someone who knows a blind person and who could give a more informative view. :)
What about blind people with Synesthesia?
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are egotistical faggots" - Captain Niggawatts

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by UnknownFan » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:23 am

Captain Niggawatts wrote: What about blind people with Synesthesia?
I didn't know that was real.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Notguest » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:27 pm

What is color? The wavelength of certain electromagnetic radiation, a concept that can be understood by anyone, sighted or not.

What you are talking about is the perception of color, a subjective experience. Obviously, it varies from person to person, but in the case of the congenitally blind, the associated neural circuits simply aren't connected the same way, so it is impossible to have the same experience.

Ultimately, we see with our brains, not our eyes.


P.S. due to the brain's plasticity, we probably would be able to make rudimentary use of a sixth sense if it were somehow added. We just wouldn't be able to use it to the same degree as someone who's gone through millions of years of evolution with it.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Mr. Shine » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:50 pm

Captain Niggawatts wrote:What about blind people with Synesthesia?
I see what you did there. >.>

Notguest- I don't really want to argue anymore, but I really think that you're not getting what I'm saying: if you have never experienced a certain sense at all, I think it'd be extremely hard or impossible to have someone explain what it's like to you. Not really sure what else to say after that novel I've already written.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Notguest » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:04 pm

That's true, but only because it's impossible to objectively describe mental experiences.
It always boils down to saying that X is what you feel like when you do Y, so someone who has never done Y will not be able to understand your description by definition.

Anyway, it is a pretty pointless argument.

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Mr. Shine » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:25 pm

Notguest wrote:Anyway, it is a pretty pointless argument.
And for my next trick, "Is water wet?"

The answer: Yes, yes it is.

Questions?

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Captain Niggawatts » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:54 pm

Mr. Shine wrote:
Captain Niggawatts wrote:What about blind people with Synesthesia?
I see what you did there. >.>

Notguest- I don't really want to argue anymore, but I really think that you're not getting what I'm saying: if you have never experienced a certain sense at all, I think it'd be extremely hard or impossible to have someone explain what it's like to you. Not really sure what else to say after that novel I've already written.
It's not that hard, really. Just describe it to them in terms of their other senses. It's like thinking about the 4th dimension. Like Carl Sagan said, while we cannot imagine the 4th dimension, we can still think about it perfectly well.

For example, to describe color to a blind person, it's simple. "Imagine that you are feeling a certain texture. Imagine that you can feel that texture without touching it, and you can feel it from far away..." etc etc. While it is obviously impossible to give somebody who has always been blind the accurate depiction of the concept of color, you can still describe it in a way that they could understand it. If they were to somehow gain sight, they would see color and automatically go "Oh! So THAT'S what s/he meant!"

It just takes a fair bit of imagination.
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are egotistical faggots" - Captain Niggawatts

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Guest » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:05 pm

Would Lilly still be as lovable if she wasn't blind?

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Re: Blindness cured...

Post by Captain Niggawatts » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:53 am

Guest wrote:Would Lilly still be as lovable if she wasn't blind?
Yes.

As a matter of fact, besides the knowledge that she was blind, and Hisao talking about her cane and whatnot, her blindness didn't really come into play in Act 1, it seemed.
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are egotistical faggots" - Captain Niggawatts

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