In regards to Shizune

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stalk
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In regards to Shizune

Post by stalk » Sun May 17, 2009 6:33 pm

In regards to the deaf girl (Shizune, I believe) and her interpreter Misha....

I am deaf as well and just started playing this. It is interesting thus far but I've noticed some rather odd contradictions. First being that Misha is sitting next to Shizune. That's a excellent way to add neck conditions to Shizune's list of disabilities.

Typically the interpreter will sit in front of the student, like a teacher would. and typically the deaf student sits in the front row. Perhaps it's not an important enough of a point for you guys to edit, however the note is on the table.

One other thing that you may find interesting, which I do not know if it's touched upon later (I've just gotten past the part where I met the school nurse) however deaf mutes have the most impressively horrid written English in existence. Due to their having never spoken english, so typically during stages where they learn to communicate they learn sign language called "American Sign Language" (Japan has their own equivalent which follows a similar grammar rule structure) where a lot of words are omitted. A typical example that's commonly given is the sentence "The car was speeding along the highway while being chased by the police went up the bridge and flew over it at high speeds, crashing into the street below and swerving back and forth before resuming the chase" would require only two signs from an fluent ASL signer.

As such their english grammar, by the time they start writing, is lacking significantly and tend to omit words. A example of what a deaf mute might write, if attempting to convey the earlier sentence, would be "car speed while chase jumped bridge with police behind". It makes sense from an ASL standpoint but clearly not proper english. How this could be taken advantage of as a moe moe thing later in the game is up to the writers. Perhaps some kind of embarassment added to her somewhat tsun tsun side where she wants help with her english (japanese?)?

Note: I became deaf at the age of 4, and am not mute.... as well as the fact I went to an oral school until I was 8 before learning sign language and joining a school for the deaf. So, my english is significantly better than most- for reference I had to take several classes at the local high school because education at the deaf schools significantly lack in comparision to public schools. My understanding is that Japan is even worse so, but you know how these rumors are.

Anyway just my thoughts on the game so far. I'm not offended by the content of the games, however I can easily see some kind of community outrage at the game if it ever became well known. I found the game rather interesting from the perspective of someone who went from grades 5 to 12 living on campus at probably the closest thing to a school like in the game, a deaf school with a school for the blind on campus, and several classes for disabled kids. However they were all kept separate rather than all put in the same class like in this game.

We also had mentally handicapped people which is not present in the game thus far, though I think that's rather niche even among niche fetishes :p Not quite my cup of tea.

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Aura
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Aura » Sun May 17, 2009 6:39 pm

stalk wrote: I'm not offended by the content of the games, however I can easily see some kind of community outrage at the game if it ever became well known.
You mean because we are making a H game where there is a deaf person, or because said deaf person is portrayed in a slightly erroneous way?
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DuaneMoody
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by DuaneMoody » Sun May 17, 2009 6:42 pm

I find the compacted grammar thing the most fascinating part of your post. And it's consistent with the discrepancy between how long it takes Shizune to sign ('...') and Misha to translate.
mentally handicapped people which is not present in the game thus far
Recall the drooler in the back row of the pan shot of Muto's class.

stalk
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by stalk » Sun May 17, 2009 6:46 pm

Aura wrote:
stalk wrote: I'm not offended by the content of the games, however I can easily see some kind of community outrage at the game if it ever became well known.
You mean because we are making a H game where there is a deaf person, or because said deaf person is portrayed in a slightly erroneous way?
The former. You're essentially objectifying a deaf person by their disability. Don't get me wrong, we've done that for centuries with women and porn and many things. So -I- am indifferent to it, however the legion of deaf rights activists will be happy to find something to complain about. My insight? At least someone's interested in a deaf woman enough to want to fuck her, that's flattering enough! Most people avoid us when they hear we are deaf!

silverleaftree
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by silverleaftree » Sun May 17, 2009 6:53 pm

Well Shizune in particular has to do a lot of written paperwork for her student council position. (I don't think I would trust Misha with that stuff really) Would that be enough "practice" for her to be able to write well?

stalk
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by stalk » Sun May 17, 2009 6:57 pm

silverleaftree wrote:Well Shizune in particular has to do a lot of written paperwork for her student council position. (I don't think I would trust Misha with that stuff really) Would that be enough "practice" for her to be able to write well?
Not quite, I mean.. you don't really learn to write english by writing random stuff. You learn it by having someone correct your writing and being handed it back. Don't get me wrong, Shizune could be very much an exception. So far she appears to be a hard worker, and someone who worked hard at their written english would be good at it. So that's a perfectly acceptable explanation.

It's just more of an... 99% of deaf mutes have horrid english. Nothing's stopping anyone from writing her in as one of the 1%.

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Caesius
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Caesius » Sun May 17, 2009 6:59 pm

Wouldn't a deaf person be able to improve their English skills by reading a lot? Even comic books (which have a lot of dialog)?

Especially if they're naturally gifted with language anyway, despite (ironically) being deaf.
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gotryfag
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by gotryfag » Sun May 17, 2009 7:04 pm

stalk wrote:The former. You're essentially objectifying a deaf person by their disability. Don't get me wrong, we've done that for centuries with women and porn and many things. So -I- am indifferent to it, however the legion of deaf rights activists will be happy to find something to complain about. My insight? At least someone's interested in a deaf woman enough to want to fuck her, that's flattering enough! Most people avoid us when they hear we are deaf!
How else do you make an H-game with cripples in it then? I mean, it's basically the design of the game, to make a great VN, and make it with disabled girls. Aside from the obvious sexual perversions, isn't it at all flattering that they can make a VN, a sublime one that, without at all being bothered by the fact that all of the girls have disabilities?

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Validus Razgriz
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Validus Razgriz » Sun May 17, 2009 7:09 pm

gotryfag wrote:
stalk wrote:The former. You're essentially objectifying a deaf person by their disability. Don't get me wrong, we've done that for centuries with women and porn and many things. So -I- am indifferent to it, however the legion of deaf rights activists will be happy to find something to complain about. My insight? At least someone's interested in a deaf woman enough to want to fuck her, that's flattering enough! Most people avoid us when they hear we are deaf!
How else do you make an H-game with cripples in it then? I mean, it's basically the design of the game, to make a great VN, and make it with disabled girls. Aside from the obvious sexual perversions, isn't it at all flattering that they can make a VN, a sublime one that, without at all being bothered by the fact that all of the girls have disabilities?
That doesn't stop people from bitching about something they don't understand.
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stalk
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by stalk » Sun May 17, 2009 7:10 pm

gotryfag wrote:
stalk wrote:The former. You're essentially objectifying a deaf person by their disability. Don't get me wrong, we've done that for centuries with women and porn and many things. So -I- am indifferent to it, however the legion of deaf rights activists will be happy to find something to complain about. My insight? At least someone's interested in a deaf woman enough to want to fuck her, that's flattering enough! Most people avoid us when they hear we are deaf!
How else do you make an H-game with cripples in it then? I mean, it's basically the design of the game, to make a great VN, and make it with disabled girls. Aside from the obvious sexual perversions, isn't it at all flattering that they can make a VN, a sublime one that, without at all being bothered by the fact that all of the girls have disabilities?
I don't know who you are disagreeing with. Clearly it's not me.
Wouldn't a deaf person be able to improve their English skills by reading a lot? Even comic books (which have a lot of dialog)?
Not really. I mean look at how many hearing people end up in high school and can barely write a coherent sentence. Deaf people are just like that too, except with a even larger gap on learning proper english relative to hearing people (not being able to speak proper english). So reading MAY help the select few, but the vast majority would not be helped by it.

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Caesius
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Caesius » Sun May 17, 2009 7:14 pm

stalk wrote:
Wouldn't a deaf person be able to improve their English skills by reading a lot? Even comic books (which have a lot of dialog)?
Not really. I mean look at how many hearing people end up in high school and can barely write a coherent sentence. Deaf people are just like that too, except with a even larger gap on learning proper english relative to hearing people (not being able to speak proper english). So reading MAY help the select few, but the vast majority would not be helped by it.
Well yeah, but I see no reason that an intelligent and rigorously educated deaf-mute wouldn't be able to develop higher-than-average English skills if they do a lot of reading.
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Envy
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Envy » Sun May 17, 2009 7:15 pm

stalk wrote:Typically the interpreter will sit in front of the student, like a teacher would. and typically the deaf student sits in the front row. Perhaps it's not an important enough of a point for you guys to edit, however the note is on the table.
Misha and Shizune's relationship is pretty informal. Misha isn't going to be much professional.
One other thing that you may find interesting, which I do not know if it's touched upon later (I've just gotten past the part where I met the school nurse) however deaf mutes have the most impressively horrid written English in existence.
I'm quite happy to put her competence with written English/Japanese down to her diligence.
stalk wrote:You're essentially objectifying a deaf person by their disability.
Well, sort of, but not really. Shizune is objectified by her disability insofar as the game is about girls with disabilities and Shizune is "the deaf one" but being deaf isn't her appeal. I mean, at least not dilberately, it's not the way the project is portraying her or any of the other girls.
Most people avoid us when they hear we are deaf!
Because they can't communicate or because they don't want to speak to someone disabled?

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gotryfag
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by gotryfag » Sun May 17, 2009 7:17 pm

stalk wrote:I don't know who you are disagreeing with. Clearly it's not me.
I am disagreeing with those who might see KS as being offensive, aside from the fact that it's "disgusting pornography". And you being identified as the cosmic ambassador of the cripple-people by the official pidgeonholing council, I'm disagreeing with you. Fascinating, isn't it?
Wouldn't a deaf person be able to improve their English skills by reading a lot? Even comic books (which have a lot of dialog)?
Would reading an alien language you've never heard spoken make you appreciate its intricacies?

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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Strider » Sun May 17, 2009 7:20 pm

gotryfag wrote: Would reading an alien language you've never heard spoken make you appreciate its intricacies?
That's how I learned Latin.

...Back to lurking for me.

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Validus Razgriz
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Re: In regards to Shizune

Post by Validus Razgriz » Sun May 17, 2009 7:22 pm

gotryfag wrote:
stalk wrote:I don't know who you are disagreeing with. Clearly it's not me.
I am disagreeing with those who might see KS as being offensive, aside from the fact that it's "disgusting pornography". And you being identified as the cosmic ambassador of the cripple-people by the official pidgeonholing council, I'm disagreeing with you. Fascinating, isn't it?
If you actually read stalk's post, you can see that he's just posting concern that some people within the deaf community might take offence. not that he takes offence to it, or that he sides with them.
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