Misha's disabillity?

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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by G3n0c1de » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:39 pm

neumanproductions wrote:Okay, I see what your getting at with your theory. It is actually very sound to think about it without thinking to hard so you are probably the wisest of us all.
However, my advanced theory involving angelman's-like syndrome takes into account her eye color (which fits with the disease), hearing issues, coordination, light headedness on stairs, along with her ability to so fluently know sign language because what the disease is. (being genetic with her father having to fully express deafness or mother fully or mild in order for the child to have the mild-version)
Eye color may fit the disease, but there are much simpler reasons for her eyes being amber. The character designs are influenced by anime and other VNs. I mean if it were a symptom then whats wrong with Shizune, Emi, and Rin, who have eye colors which don't exist in Japanese genetics. Or Hanako, whose eye color doesn't seem to exist in nature. And don't get me started on their hair colors. My point being, these colors are about stylization of the characters. To make them immediately recognizable. If it turned out that Misha's eyes are a symptom, and there is no explanation for the other eye colors, then that would feel kind of cheap.
It's a good thing Shizune is deaf, she is the only one who can stand (not) hearing "Wahaha~!" over and over.

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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by neumanproductions » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:03 pm

G3n0c1de wrote:Eye color may fit the disease, but there are much simpler reasons for her eyes being amber. The character designs are influenced by anime and other VNs. I mean if it were a symptom then whats wrong with Shizune, Emi, and Rin, who have eye colors which don't exist in Japanese genetics. Or Hanako, whose eye color doesn't seem to exist in nature. And don't get me started on their hair colors. My point being, these colors are about stylization of the characters. To make them immediately recognizable. If it turned out that Misha's eyes are a symptom, and there is no explanation for the other eye colors, then that would feel kind of cheap.
I know what your saying and believe me with all the anime i've watched that it wouldn't be me to question choices of eye/hair color after seeing what i've seen.
In fact I can cite multiple cases of well known anime girls with pink hair and yellow/amber eyes. (Akira Kogami from "Lucky Star", Haruko Haruhara from "FLCL", and even Saya Takagi from "Highschool of the Dead" who is like Shizune in my opinion)

However, like I said, i'm probably the one overthinking this the most...probably my science side taking over...but you can't just ignore a symptom when diagnosing a disease in real-life so that just kind of gets pulled into my observations here. Her eyes could have absolutely no relation to her disability but you can't just expect me to ignore it. If I be judged by my theory of eye color than may those be judged by their theory of her drills!
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Sid Vicious » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:17 pm

maybe she there to help people understand shizune
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Leotrak » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:24 am

Sid Vicious wrote:maybe she there to help people understand shizune
... I smell a troll ">_>
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by hatori1181 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:18 pm

My wife may have solved this mystery.

Meet William's Syndrome:
an unusually cheerful demeanor and ease with strangers; developmental delay coupled with strong language skills; and cardiovascular problems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome

there are some things that don't quite fit, but the rest is a dead ringer.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by neumanproductions » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:05 pm

hatori1181 wrote: Meet William's Syndrome:
an unusually cheerful demeanor and ease with strangers; developmental delay coupled with strong language skills; and cardiovascular problems
Another good theory. Seems i'm not the only one actually still looking into this.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Grand Haberdasher » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:45 am

Not sure she's got the trademark facial features, but that could just be the art style.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Totz the Plaid » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:05 am

G3n0c1de wrote:Eye color may fit the disease, but there are much simpler reasons for her eyes being amber.
Like I said (and linked to a Wikipedia page to back up my claim): amber eyes are 100% natural (if extremely uncommon). They may occur naturally in Japan, but as G3n0c1de said, neither do the hair/eye colors of numerous other characters.

Before joining the boards here, when I played through the game, I never noticed a "golden" appearance to her eyes, actually, they just seemed light brown. Now that I've seen the close-up desktop and read discussion of her eye color on here, I've amended that to amber, but it still doesn't strike me as odd for the reason stated in my previous paragraph. I REALLY think that way too much discussion has happened over something that wouldn't be a factor in real life.

Oh, and neumanproductions, I looked up images of the "golden" eye color that occurs with Angelman Syndrome and they affect the sclera (the 'white of the eye'), not the iris as is shown to be amber in Misha's sprites. While I'm not ruling out your theory since the Devs could have missed that bit the same way you did, it does put a pretty big hole in what is one of your biggest symptoms.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by neumanproductions » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:17 am

Totz the Plaid wrote:
G3n0c1de wrote:Eye color may fit the disease, but there are much simpler reasons for her eyes being amber.
Oh, and neumanproductions, I looked up images of the "golden" eye color that occurs with Angelman Syndrome and they affect the sclera (the 'white of the eye'), not the iris as is shown to be amber in Misha's sprites. While I'm not ruling out your theory since the Devs could have missed that bit the same way you did, it does put a pretty big hole in what is one of your biggest symptoms.
I always thought the symptom was just supposed to resemble that of Brushfield spots which can be found in Downs Syndrome patients. (see image)
That's why I was never able to rule out Downs Syndrome like so many people before have already mentioned. Although the eyes typically aren't definite amber the spots do give off the illusion of them being that color, or do in fact attribute to the coloring due to the lack of pigment.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Totz the Plaid » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:40 am

neumanproductions wrote:
Totz the Plaid wrote:
G3n0c1de wrote:Eye color may fit the disease, but there are much simpler reasons for her eyes being amber.
Oh, and neumanproductions, I looked up images of the "golden" eye color that occurs with Angelman Syndrome and they affect the sclera (the 'white of the eye'), not the iris as is shown to be amber in Misha's sprites. While I'm not ruling out your theory since the Devs could have missed that bit the same way you did, it does put a pretty big hole in what is one of your biggest symptoms.
I always thought the symptom was just supposed to resemble that of Brushfield spots which can be found in Downs Syndrome patients. (see image)
That's why I was never able to rule out Downs Syndrome like so many people before have already mentioned. Although the eyes typically aren't definite amber the spots do give off the illusion of them being that color, or do in fact attribute to the coloring due to the lack of pigment.
No, I definitely see what you mean, but all the images I've looked up relating to the eyes of people with Angelman Syndrome have them being "golden" in that there's a slight discoloration of the sclera turning it a bit of a sickly yellowish color.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Dollywitch » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:48 pm

Guys, I'm gonna go all serious business on this for a bit, maybe bring the thread back on track. As a new person, it's my duty to bring some new ideas for the table.

First off I want to say some of the popular suggestions don't work on a practical level. The progressive hearing loss doesn't fit with what they're told in the plot - Misha already knew some sign language, but went on to learn more to communicate with Shizune. If it was progressive hearing loss, it would be getting constantly worse. Learning some at the start when you don't really need it and forgetting about it later on seems like the opposite of progressive hearing loss - the implants theory makes more sense. It would also be cruel to pair Misha up with Shizune in that regard. Progressive hearing loss means she'll be poor at communicating things to Shizune(unless she's an amazing lip reader), but as we can see she's actually quite effective.

Inner ear problems seem more appropriate, but don't explain other aspects of her behaviour. Also if she is hard of hearing in any shape or form, again, she wouldn't be able to communicate effectively with Shizune.

Hermaphrodite, um, it's an interesting thought, as is Gender Dysphoria. While it's NOT a registered disability, if her parents thought she was messed up enough they might send her there regardless. And honestly, I think GID should be a proper disability as there is no way in hell it's managable in a regular school. It's possible she could have started transition at a young age but her parents sent her to a disabled school to avoid bullying. I actually kind of like this theory, and it would explain how some "completely healthy" students ended up there - HRT is something that needs to be monitored too, so handy having the nurse on hand. If she has aspergersish or coordination issues on top of it, it's an added bonus.

I am going to suggest Aspergers Syndrome, or a related ASD. I am thinking it may not be Aspergers in specific, but a similar condition, however it's mostly likely aspergers. I don't like how people shot this down earlier in the thread. Let me address some of the issues people are having:

1) Not a physical disability.

Actually, not quite true. Aspergers often comes with some more physical side effects, which may be the key to explaining Misha's behaviour as I'll get into later. Also, it's already been established that the school isn't just for physical disabilities, it's just that they're not equipped for more severe disabilities such as full blown autism which may impede communication and self reliance on any level.

2) Not a serious disability.

This is another thing that isn't true, and I think for this reason it's a good idea to include it in the game. The 4chan dominated internet has given people the impression that Aspergers is either a made up condition, or not one to be taken seriously. Actually, someone with aspergers is less likely to be ready to go out in the world in general, or have gainful employment than someone with a traditional disability as the very concept of full time employment can be difficult or beyond them. Dealing with people in the work place constantly, dealing with someone's routine(Aspergers suffers can be very strongly routine driven, but of course, their own routine, or find any routine difficult to deal with at all).

3) Misha isn't introverted

People with milder AS aren't necessarily introverted. I notice a lot of kids with AS don't necessarily act "shy", they tend to rant on at you and be generally loud like Misha. It is true that she should be displaying some more social awkwardness than she does - but keep in mind this is only a demo, and we almost never see her without Shizune. It is possible for someone with AS to give the impression they do not have this difficulty with enough mental effort, which is an important point to make, but it can come at a high cost in terms of stress. Also, keep in mind girls are more rarely diagnosed with AS than males(At least a 1:10 ratio I believe, but it closes every year) - and girls acting like Misha could well be why. Even though they display some symptoms, the female brain is hard-wired differently and in some ways more socially so the fact that they are suffering from largely the same difficulties doesn't show.

Now, to get on to WHY I think Misha has AS.

First off, one of the first things you see her doing is obsessively shaping the rubbers - this sort of compulsive, ritualistic behaviour goes hand in hand with Aspergers. It is difficult to have AS without some form of OCD or ADHD, often both.

The way that Misha seems to talk AT you, rather than with you, is also very AS-like. Aspergers will drone on in your face, and often have bizarre intonation just like Misha.

Second, I'm actually going to have to agree with the "Puppet" theory to an extent, as crazy as it sounds. People with any form of autism can often have difficulty building up personalities, and once they do they sometimes end up being very eccentric like Misha's. Shizune is in a sense feeding Misha a personality. But due to Misha's aspergers creating difficulties in interpretation of social cues and general empathy, it causes the eerie disconnect that Hisao continually makes a note of.

This would explain the absence of "shyness" symptoms in many ways, since she's kind of running on an automated program of sorts. This is why she makes such a "good" pair with Shizune in this regard, as being a medium gives her a lot more experience in communication without having her as directly involved. Someone mentioned earlier that autistic/aspergers children are sometimes taught sign language as an alternate means of communication.

http://aspergers-autism.com/sign_language.php

Another explanation for her signing, especially her competency at it is the "focused interest" part of Aspergers - perhaps she had a deaf or hard of hearing friend when she was younger and became very interested in signing, which is why she has such an apparently random skill, but lost interest like Aspergers kids tend to as well, until she met Shizune. She was sat beside Shizune for this reason, so it's not exactly a big coincidence. Misha does seem unusually skilled for her age, being able to sign multiple conversations and interpret quickly, while having possible hearing/sensory issues.

We often see there are times when Misha goes into "frowny face" mode, where she seems more reserved than normal. If we see her becoming shy in the absence of Shizune, then it would make the Aspergers theory become very likely.

I mentioned earlier there are some "Physical" symptoms to Aspergers. Lack of coordination is one. When I was younger, I used to have a lot of difficulty with stairs for some reason, and I had poor balance. It was less "dizziness" than a fear of it, but I could see how someone with poor balance and general fear would get dizzy attempting to do so. Of course, she could have an inner ear problem in ADDITION to Aspergers.

And here's the bit I'm really enthusiastic about, that could well explain Misha's volume and demeanor. Sufferers of ASD often have a lot of sensory problems, as I just mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_overload

What's particularly of note throughout Misha's appearances is that it's mentioned once or twice that she is constantly signing all the conversations around her. Someone with sensory problems in terms of hearing would have difficulty immediately distinguishing between relevant and irrelevant conversation. Of course, this comes back to the original problem with being a poor match for Shizune, however if Shizune has any skill in lip reading, it may not be a problem. Of course, it's also more likely Misha does that as a means of coping with the sensory overload, rather than an automatic result, or she's learned some kind of distinction.

A more extreme version of this is called the "Cocktail Party Effect".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocktail_party_effect

While it doesn't mention being a direct symptom of Aspergers, I do know one guy with Aspergers that has it. I believe it also happened after he had some kind of hearing difficulty, so perhaps Misha went down the same path, and her loudness could be due to a previous hearing condition combined with this.

While I doubt all people with sensory overload or CPE act this way(Though the guy I know seems pretty loud), Misha's personality could mean she talks loudly to make sure she's "heard" above all the racket.

Here's a book I found on Sensory problems with Aspergers:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RCQ1U3 ... &q&f=false

What to look for:

1. Fears height, stairs, escalators,
2. Has difficulty catching balls
3. Appears startled when being approached(good reason to pair her with Shizune who can't speak?)
4. Compulsive repetitive hand, head or body movements that fluctuate between near and far(People with aspergers engage in "Occupational Therapy" to control these - sign language being one possibility, replacing hand flapping etc. with more elaborate movements, very fitting)
5. Pronunciation problems
6. Unable to distinguish between some sounds
7. Hits eyes/ears/nose/onesself
8. Difficulty with hopping, jumping, skipping, riding a bicycle(i.e. balance, apparent inner ear issues)
9. Climbs high into a tree, jumps off tall fences, etc.(err.?)

Page 58-60 has some more relevant symptoms.

Another famous sensory problem would be tactile oversensitivity - made famous by characters like L from Death Note, who has to hold things a certain way. Things feel "too much" to hold. This can also apply to for example, the texture of certain foods, which is why a lot of aspergers kids will refuse to eat certain things.

If Misha DOES have Aspergers or an ASD, I'm impressed that the devs have really done their homework and not fallen into the trap of lol Internet Disease. There can be some very real "Physical" symptoms to Aspergers that can provide a lot of difficulty in every day life, so it would make sense to me for someone with Aspergers to be admitted to a school for dealing with such issues. Also, Hanako has severe social anxiety which is one of the major symptoms of Aspergers - while Misha so far has mostly lacked that, it's obvious the school sets itself up to be an environment capable of dealing with that, making it a good place for people with aspergers, who as far as I can tell are not treated very well or efficiently in Japan in general, and left to become NEETs. The high pressure, conservative work ethic of Japan comes at the cost of destroying many people who are incompatible with such a culture.

I'm saying Misha has an ASD, somewhat mild on the social side of things(though clearly she lacks the ability to "read" in many ways) but unfortunately having strong sensory issues which can be an unfortunate aspect of ASDs.

I think people don't want Misha to have an ASD because it means Misha is less Misha, it's her disease making her that way. But keep in mind all the people that have posted about their brothers being nothing like this - while there are some things in common Aspergers is kind of like a "flick the switch and see what happens" thing, you can trace back symptoms to a common source but they're not the same for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of things we'll see about Misha that have nothing to do with ASD. It's not that the ASD makes Misha who it is, more like it allows her to be who she is. It's an explanation for why some things go beyond the realm of "personality" into odd or jarring behaviour.

A lot of people have difficulty accepting certain conditions, but the fact is that the brain does largely have a "mechanical" nature, certain things happen certain ways because of certain mechanisms, and when people try to describe them maybe it infringes on the more "ghost in the machine" view of how we work. But it doesn't make someone less of an individual, since everything probably happens for some reason anyway, and if it doesn't, then even ASD people are probably prone to some of this random behaviour.

I think this is the most complete explanation for Misha thus far, and I hope someone finds my suggestions interesting.

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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by toast » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:22 pm

Dollywitch wrote:words words words
You've got a good argument there, but the problem with disabilities and illnesses and the like is that they often have a wide range of symptoms. You can diagnose yourself with just about anything if you try hard enough. It's like going on WebMD - all symptoms are cancer at some point or another. It's probably best not to try to read TOO much into things. Yamaku also accepts normal students, you know.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Dollywitch » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:02 pm

You can say that about any fan theory though. Given it's a game and not a real person we can only assume it's possible to diagnose them in one way or another. Aspergers is the "best" fit so far, though of course it's not perfect due to Misha's apparent lack of shyness, but that's not a definite requirement.

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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Totz the Plaid » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:29 am

Dollywitch wrote:Also, it's already been established that the school isn't just for physical disabilities
Wrong. The only disabilities the school handles are physical ones as have been stated by the Devs time and time again. Normal students are also able to attend the school if their parents can afford the tuition, but it is NOT for mental disabilities.

I suggested that tinnitus might be a symptom of her disability and you claim that it would impede her ability to translate for Shizune which is also inaccurate as I've recently met a couple people who suffer from it as part of inner-ear issues and they have difficulty discerning how loud they're being at times but are perfectly able to understand regular conversation as their brain tunes out the ringing after suffering from it for a while. They have some difficulty with extremely low volumes, but you're assuming that Misha is unable to ask someone to speak up if she's having difficulty hearing them.
Dollywitch wrote: What to look for:

1. Fears height, stairs, escalators,
2. Has difficulty catching balls
3. Appears startled when being approached(good reason to pair her with Shizune who can't speak?)
4. Compulsive repetitive hand, head or body movements that fluctuate between near and far(People with aspergers engage in "Occupational Therapy" to control these - sign language being one possibility, replacing hand flapping etc. with more elaborate movements, very fitting)
5. Pronunciation problems
6. Unable to distinguish between some sounds
7. Hits eyes/ears/nose/onesself
8. Difficulty with hopping, jumping, skipping, riding a bicycle(i.e. balance, apparent inner ear issues)
9. Climbs high into a tree, jumps off tall fences, etc.(err.?)
1 - She goes up on the roof for the fireworks display and has no problems with that. She only mentions dizziness on stairs which is more representative of vertigo or inner-ear issues.
2 - Never has to catch a ball in act 1. She has difficulty with aiming while throwing. Again, more suggestive of inner-ear issues.
3 - Never gets startled while approached in act 1. Read the scene with Emi running into Hisao again as that would be the #1 spot for that to show up if it's going to. It didn't.
4 - There are times when she prefers to try to give her hands a rest when she's able to take a break from signing. There are no signs of compulsive movement in scenes without translation such as the stall-building scene.
5 - She only seems to have problems with unfamiliar words. There's nothing overt to suggest this as I know multiple people with different forms of Aspergers. My friend's younger brother who has it has difficulty with simple words and complex words alike. A different friend who has a less intensive case only has problems with particular sounds and it's more like a speech impediment. Misha shows neither of these signs.
6 - That never shows up in act 1. She only has difficulty with a couple difficult words. That seems to be more of a vocabulary issue.
7 - Never happens.
8 - Um... again, this never once comes up in act 1.
9 - Never comes up in act 1.

I know people with Aspergers in a couple different forms, including the brother of one friend who is rather outgoing, but not in a Misha-like way. Misha doesn't resemble them at all.
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Re: Misha's disabillity?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:24 am

First off, one of the first things you see her doing is obsessively shaping the rubbers - this sort of compulsive, ritualistic behaviour goes hand in hand with Aspergers. It is difficult to have AS without some form of OCD or ADHD, often both.
Come on, everybody does that... Well, I did, but I've never been diagnosed with OCDs because of it...
Does Hanako have OCD because she only steps on the dark tiles?
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