Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

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Mattyd
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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Mattyd » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:31 am

cpl_crud wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 am
I mean, if you do the whole Holographic principal then the entire universe is summarized on the 2D surface of itself so information is less complex than we think...

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by A Certain Citrus » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:20 pm

Hi Matty,

I originally intended it to be a video. People don't struggle to listen, so matters of difficulty never came into it.

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by cloudx » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:01 am

I have spent 80+ (it was probably more but OS formats) hours playing and replaying this VN. Your essay is well written but doesn't really add anything beyond playing the VN. It's nostalgic and reminds me of why I played it and the emotions I had playing the first time, but it doesn't really convey anything in particular strongly. It's basically a big written piece to say you enjoyed it but not much more than that. As someone who loves this, I really do appreciate how much effort you put into summarizing characters and acts, but I don't know if that really matters much in terms of this essay overall when the primary audience is people who have already read the VN.

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by cpl_crud » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:58 am

There have been a few people saying they don't get why someone would write an essay based on the VN that doesn't "add" anything, but I think I get it.


I don't think anyone has asked an artists why they would bother drawing fan art of anything - same thing for fan fiction writers.

Sometimes you get inspired, but everyone has different creative outlets. To some, that might be parsing the game into a more acedemic format.


And who knows? Maybe someone who has never heard of VNs but who reads a lot of essays will find the essay and say "hmmm, sounds good."


Maybe that person will never read the real game. That's not a problem either. It's the same as someone enjoying a fan art piece without ever reading the game.


So, I get it. I can't direct movies or draw to save my life, but often I find myself writing after being inspired. I think did a blog post about this but I'm too lazy to look it up.
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<Suriko> In a non-creepy fatherly way
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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by A Certain Citrus » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:19 am

Cloudx: Thanks for taking the time to read it. I certainly can’t say you’re wrong if you didn’t get much out of it. But I find it strange to say there’s nothing in there that you couldn’t get by reading the VN. By the second page of my word document, I’m explaining that KS triggers an emotion you probably haven’t heard of, and explaining it. Pages 10-20 also don’t cover the story at all, and are just analysing numerous things from Act 1. I can’t disagree that there's a lot of story overall, however.

Crud: Thanks very much for the support. I think the comparison to fan works is interesting. I certainly didn’t stop to question why I was writing the essay while I was working on it. I can’t say my motivations were anything beyond “This is fun to write,” and “Maybe people will like reading this.”

With that said, I also have the strong feeling that my retelling of the story is not as much of a waste of time as people have claimed - but I’ve been really struggling to find the words to explain why. I’m still not totally there, but I think it’s something like this:

For many games, there are obvious reasons to retell their stories: games can cost loads of money, be hard to run, and take ages to play. Given that there are more games in existence than you can ever possibly play through, sometimes a quick summary will be the most you can ever get out of one.

Of course, none of these criteria apply to KS. KS is free, easy to run, readily available, and doesn’t take long to read. So again: why retell its story?

I think that the key point is this: I’m not just retelling the story. I’m telling the story as I see it.

I wrote that I hated Rin’s route when I first read it. I also wrote that it went on to become my favourite piece of media. The route itself didn’t change between my two readings. All that changed was my perspective, and my capacity to understand the work. Rin went from someone deliberately and irritatingly weird to a sympathetic character and victim of circumstance. The route was exponentially more powerful when read the second way.

If someone reads the VN, there’s a fair chance they’ll have the same experience with Rin’s route that I did my first time. They might go away and permanently miss out on the better experience. Explaining some of its subtleties may avert that.

The obvious counterargument then becomes “Why not just explain it without retelling the story?”

To which I would say: I’m not sure that you can.

For a scene late in Hanako’s route, I wrote:

“Hanako genuinely believes that she is a hideous, broken person, and that all she will ever receive, and maybe deserve from others is a few crumbs of their pity. Having been in her exact position, I can feel an enormous sympathy. To carry a flaw you feel invalidates your right to receive love from others is a hell of a thing. I lived with that burden for years until, one day, I opened up about it, to an almost complete stranger. Had she responded with disgust or mockery it probably would have broken me in a way from which I’d have never recovered. She didn’t. She told me that it didn’t make me any less of a person, and that there was really nothing wrong with me. It seems silly in hindsight, but in the moment, when you’ve shown your ugliest, most vulnerable part to another person, given them the absolute power to destroy you, believed they wouldn’t even be wrong to do it… and they don’t; they hand it back to you gently, and tell you that everything’s fine… that is a hell of a thing.

So, here stands Hanako, naked down to her soul, fully believing that Hisao must see that she’s an ugly and broken and worthless person but hoping against hope that he won’t. And in that instant, when he has the power to break her forever, Hisao states what he genuinely, and fully believes: that Hanako is a beautiful person, and that her body could never change that. From drowning in darkness, she is pulled up and out by the grace of someone who could see a beauty inside her that she could never see in herself.”

That’s not exactly retelling the story. I mean, I tell you the events that happen; but I frame it completely differently – the way that I see it. And to do that, I have to give you the context of my own life; which I believe makes that moment more powerful. You still won’t see it exactly like I do, but you’ll be somewhere closer, and if the moment never really clicked with you before, maybe it will now.

I appreciate that lots of the story-recounting I did was significantly less interesting than that bit - but then, most of my experiences with scenes from KS were significantly weaker than that. Regardless, what I want to convey is that whenever I was retelling the story, I was actually trying to add context so you could see it the way that I do. Again, an example:

“Hisao and Rin eventually fall asleep - before Hisao is woken by fireworks. Rin soon wakes up too, and they watch the flashes of fire paint the night sky like an abstract painting, with flowers of red, and green and gold. Rin says she likes fireworks - but they make her sad. They’re loud, and bright, but when you look, they’re already gone, like they never were. It’s not just fireworks. Every symphony, every beautiful sunset, every attractive woman, and perfect moment – nothing lasts; and all is fated to fade; first to memory, then someday, to nothing. If you fixate on this, then the best moments of your life will be tinged by an unbearable sadness, as you lament your joys slowly slipping away. There’s only one counter to that kind of thinking, and Hisao now gives it to Rin: while everything will fade, we, for now, are alive, and experiencing something wonderful. By seizing hold of that, you can walk forward, and ward off any further grief.”

I’m retelling the story, sure, but I’m also explaining the conversation. Did you pick up on all of it the very first time that you read the scene? I certainly didn’t, and I imagine I wasn’t the only one.

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Anonymous22 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:12 pm

>I'm not just summarizing. What I am doing is, instead of letting the work speak for itself and allowing people to interpret it, I will give a play-by-play of everything that happens and tell you what you're supposed to think. What is important here is not YOUR experience, or THE experience; it is MY experience. I am reframing the entire game solely around that. I am providing a valuable service to the community.
woah
hurr durr

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Mattyd » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:27 pm

A Certain Citrus wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:20 pm
Hi Matty,

I originally intended it to be a video. People don't struggle to listen, so matters of difficulty never came into it.
Okay then, I'll shut up now.
I've prob written ~35k words combining the 5 KS vids I've done.
:shock:

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Can't wait... :P
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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by A Certain Citrus » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:05 am

Anonymous22 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:12 pm
>I'm not just summarizing. What I am doing is, instead of letting the work speak for itself and allowing people to interpret it, I will give a play-by-play of everything that happens and tell you what you're supposed to think. What is important here is not YOUR experience, or THE experience; it is MY experience. I am reframing the entire game solely around that. I am providing a valuable service to the community.
woah
If this is the best you can do, then you know as well as I do that you’re done.
Mattyd wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:27 pm
A Certain Citrus wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:20 pm
Hi Matty,

I originally intended it to be a video. People don't struggle to listen, so matters of difficulty never came into it.
Okay then, I'll shut up now.
I've prob written ~35k words combining the 5 KS vids I've done.
:shock:

LILLY THIS SPRING!
Can't wait... :P
Damn. I figured it'd be long, but that's probably over four hours, hey? I'm working on a few other scripts at the moment. I might take a crack at producing those before I shoot for the big one. I still have to work on getting my diction right, and learn video editing :/

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by ProfAllister » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:10 pm

A Certain Citrus wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:19 am
With that said, I also have the strong feeling that my retelling of the story is not as much of a waste of time as people have claimed - but I’ve been really struggling to find the words to explain why. I’m still not totally there, but I think it’s something like this:

For many games, there are obvious reasons to retell their stories: games can cost loads of money, be hard to run, and take ages to play. Given that there are more games in existence than you can ever possibly play through, sometimes a quick summary will be the most you can ever get out of one.

Of course, none of these criteria apply to KS. KS is free, easy to run, readily available, and doesn’t take long to read. So again: why retell its story?

I think that the key point is this: I’m not just retelling the story. I’m telling the story as I see it.
I hate to say this, but you're doubling down and digging in your heels on a stand you can't support, and it's really starting to show.

You are saying three weeks out now that you just now think you have an idea what you meant to say. But this isn't a poem or a story. It's not a case of "the spirit moved me and it is itself a journey of self-discovery". This isn't Rin despairing of her ability to be understood. This is an academic paper. Academia doesn't do "yeah, I guess this is what I meant lol".

If you are still discovering what you meant to say, the paper was never finished - it needs a new/final draft.

If you have to explain what a finalised academic paper meant to say, then the paper failed at its primary purpose. The car you're selling us has square wheels. Yes, the seats are comfy, the engine runs at a quiet purr, it's got a spectacular entertainment and climate control suite, and looks beautiful. But that doesn't matter because it doesn't work as a car. Calling the square wheels a safety feature isn't helping things.
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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Mattyd » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:32 pm

A Certain Citrus wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:05 am
Damn. I figured it'd be long, but that's probably over four hours, hey?
2.5 hours over 5 vids, but I talk rrrreeeeeeely fast.

Video editing:
BE AS SIMPLE AS YOU CAN to make your point.
Do a podcast with a static image.
Each of my vids is 40-50 SOLID HOURS of making images and then screwing around in Windows Movie Maker.
(and then there's writing it, recording it, editing every pause out of the audio and mixing it...)
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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Mattyd » Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:38 pm

Ironically :P Shizune's route is my longest vid!
Almost 38 min, and I cut about 8k words from it!

lt:dw;
I wouldn't join the Student Council, but I like Der Shiz.
I'd totally play risk and eat fried foods with her.
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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by A Certain Citrus » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:38 pm

Prof: What I meant to say is what I said in the piece. What I’m just now figuring out is why I wanted to say it. They're two different things.

Matty: Yeah, guess it'll take a while. OH WELL.

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Anonymous22 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:13 pm

The point of your blogpost was "game made me feel" and then you just summarized the game. It provides no new perspective, it is not insightful, it is not daring, and you don't even know what you're talking about. It's very obvious you wrote this for self-aggrandizement because every part of it that is not mere summary, revolves around your own ego. Like what does your PhD have to do with this?
Your response shows you are not looking for any kind of honest discussion, you were looking for a dick suck.
I am uninterested in arguing with you and it's telling that you see it that way.
hurr durr

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by A Certain Citrus » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:57 pm

Anonymous22 wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:13 pm
The point of your blogpost was "game made me feel" and then you just summarized the game. It provides no new perspective, it is not insightful, it is not daring, and you don't even know what you're talking about. It's very obvious you wrote this for self-aggrandizement because every part of it that is not mere summary, revolves around your own ego. Like what does your PhD have to do with this?
Your response shows you are not looking for any kind of honest discussion, you were looking for a dick suck.
I am uninterested in arguing with you and it's telling that you see it that way.
I’ve already addressed your first point multiple times.

I can’t defend against accusations of “Not insightful,” “Not daring,” or “Don’t even know what I’m talking about.” All of them are relative. I’m pretty sure that I was the first person to notice several things in the VN. I'm not sure how much more you want.

The PhD was literally clickbait. I would have thought that a man of your insight might have picked up on that.

If you’re uninterested, then stop. No one is forcing you to reply.

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Re: Post-PhD, I spent a year writing this 60,000 word KS Essay

Post by Scramblers » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:26 pm

This is going to become an infinite loop of you two snottily refusing to argue but still needing to get in the last word, isn't it?

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