Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

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ProfAllister
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by ProfAllister » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 am

I'm somewhat inclined to take the interpretation that Jigoro and Hideaki are actually quite normal, to some extent.

Jigoro's a little eccentric, granted, but he's clearly a successful and wealthy businessman (and likely single father). As I'm fond of pointing out, his first impression of Hisao is pretty bad.

Strike 1: The late addition of a boy coming to visit - that sets off alarm bells for any father
Strike 2: The fishing trip. While Hisao takes only a small part of the blame for this one, his attempts to justify the group's behavior fail to win him any points
Strike 3: The first several days, Hisao's sleeping in past noon. That rarely reflects well on a person. Could be health-related, admitted.
Strike 4: When they (finally) meet, Hisao is rather lippy and evasive. Jigoro overreacts, but there are several explanations (to include brythain's proposed trolling)
Strike 5: Hisao sits in the dadchair. You don't sit in the dadchair.
(Probably more strikes, but those are the big ones)

In spite of this, it's worth noting that Jigoro doesn't forbid the relationship, or any similar dramatic actions associated with unreasonable overbearing parents. In fact, his fourth appearance is him arguably taking to heart one of the bits of criticism Hisao levelled at him in "Confrontation".

So, right off the bat, Hisao earns about 90% of the abuse that Jigoro slings at him.

As for Misha and Jigoro? That's a bit more complex. In "Family Plot," it seems to be Misha, of her own initiative, that defuses the escalating tensions between Hisao and Jigoro, but, almost immediately after, she's laughing as if to say that Hisao and Jigoro put on a good show. Most likely explanations? Either Misha's an idiot (doubtful) or she's somewhat in on the joke.

"Pangrammatic Window" is a little trickier. Jigoro's irritated, and Misha does present several irritating quirks to compound the issue into a positive feedback loop. On the other hand, "Use-Mention Distinction" presents the idea that Jigoro is actually kind of fond of Misha, and almost considers her part of the family. This presents the possibility of being "in on the joke". Interestingly enough, it could be a ruse specifically to allow Shizune and Hisao some alone time (a stretch perhaps, but not to be dismissed outright).

Regarding the eggshell omelette? Jigoro's definitely a dedicated outdoorsman. KS isn't the first time I'd heard of eggs being cooked shells and all. It could be normal for Jigoro; it could be something he's familiar with but doesn't do often, intended to troll Hisao; for that matter, it could just be that Jigoro's a crappy chef. Frankly, given that eggshell eggs are a legitimate thing people eat, especially dedicated outdoorsmen, it becomes very hard to interpret the omelette as some sort of inhospitable gesture.


As for Hideaki, have you ever had to spend time hanging out with your older sister's friends? Or worse, one-on-one with her boyfriend? It's usually very awkward and uncomfortable unless you find something in common, and you're rarely even motivated to try finding that. Especially when her boyfriend is as boring as Hisao.

And the age gap is real. When I interact an 18-year-old these days, he's taking about how he and his based basic bae go around dabbing thots because they're so extra. Naturally, response is along the lines of "And a bip bop skiddlywop to you too, daddio."
While it's only a couple years for Hisao and Hideaki, it's significant.

As for Hideaki's fashion taste, Hisao's not one to judge. Shizune's route especially hammers in that Hisao's got no fashion sense. For all we know, Hideaki's style could be the height of fashion in his social group (which really isn't much of a stretch, considering we're talking about urban Japan).
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calcifer
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by calcifer » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:57 pm

ProfAllister wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 am
he's talking about how he and his based basic bae go around dabbing thots because they're so extra.
I guess I'm too old to be "with it" anymore, so can someone please translate this for me?
ProfAllister wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 am
[lots of interesting points]
I wish a22 was still around to at least share his POV with us and help clarify things. On second thought, given how he behaved when he was last here, maybe that's not such a great idea.
Shizune = Rin > Emi > Hanako > Lilly
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marantana
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by marantana » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm

ProfAllister wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 am
Especially when her boyfriend is as boring as Hisao.
So it's not just me who thinks that Hisao is the most clueless and immature character in the game?
If I were a girl, I'd never fall for him.
But I might just be a bit jealous XD

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Oddball
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by Oddball » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:12 am

marantana wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
ProfAllister wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 am
Especially when her boyfriend is as boring as Hisao.
So it's not just me who thinks that Hisao is the most clueless and immature character in the game?
If I were a girl, I'd never fall for him.
But I might just be a bit jealous XD
Most clueless? Did you forget Kenji is in the game?

Most immature? I'd rate Emi and Misha as being far less mature than he is. Honestly, Hanako is fairly immature too, but that's more to do with her lack of social interactions with anyone growing up.
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marantana
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by marantana » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:47 pm

Oddball wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:12 am
marantana wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
ProfAllister wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 am
Especially when her boyfriend is as boring as Hisao.
So it's not just me who thinks that Hisao is the most clueless and immature character in the game?
Most clueless? Did you forget Kenji is in the game?
I think he's underrated. Shows sometimes, also in the bad bad ending. It's just covered up by his craziness.
Oddball wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:12 am
Most immature? I'd rate Emi and Misha as being far less mature than he is. Honestly, Hanako is fairly immature too, but that's more to do with her lack of social interactions with anyone growing up.
Emi... Not sure. Maybe. She's a very strong personality.
Misha... no way. She found her passion and pursues it. She's also prepared to leave the continent for that.
Hanako... as you said.
The most mature imo is definitely Lilly.
Shizano... idk, perhaps also mature.
Rin... beats me. Probably quite mature.

Miki... who knows. I'd have liked her to be a playable character in the main game. I just downloaded Summer's Clover though. I'll see. H-Scenes might have been nice for her. But who really cares...

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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by Hanako Fancopter » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:16 pm

You guys don't give Emi enough credit IMO. I'd consider her one of the most mature, possibly the very most. The beginning of her relationship with Hisao is the closest to how these things start IRL; she gives him a bunch of obvious signals then just goes "I like you, kiss me already," no ambiguity or leading him around. She is pretty straight forward with what she wants and what she doesn't. She doesn't let any of her personal problems interfere with their time together and when she does open up she does it in a fairly healthy way. The few times that she does get pissed, she regrets her behavior and becomes apologetic almost immediately afterwards.

The other fairly mature character is Shizune. The rest I would say all fall pretty severely short in one way or another.

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Oddball
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by Oddball » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:04 pm

She is pretty straight forward with what she wants and what she doesn't. She doesn't let any of her personal problems interfere with their time together and when she does open up she does it in a fairly healthy way. The few times that she does get pissed, she regrets her behavior and becomes apologetic almost immediately afterwards.
Emi's problems very much get int he way of their relationships and she doesn't know what she wants.

By nature she seems very friendly and quickly connects with Hisao, but then when she feels their getting too serious, she pushes him away because she's told herself not to get close to people ... despite getting close to people and being really friendly.
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by Hanako Fancopter » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:23 pm

Hisao thought that Emi was pushing him away, and because the story is told from his perspective, the audience is made sympathetic to it. I don't think it's necessarily the correct perspective, or the only lens through which to view things. What I saw was Hisao pushing something and making an issue out of it when it was clear that Emi did not want to talk about it yet. Personally, I would consider him more in the wrong than her. She has a right not to talk about something if she doesn't want to talk about it. They had only been dating for a month or two tops (too lazy to go look at the official timeline, but it can't have been more than), which is really not all that long. He could have given her plenty more time without pressing the envelope.

Despite that, she still gets over the whole thing and comes around to his side fairly quickly in the good ending, in a situation where a lot of people would have told him to just bugger off. And she communicates with him clearly about what she wants to do: When he chases her on the track and breaks through her defenses, she tells him that she needs time to think but wants him to come back and run with her in the meantime, for instance.

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Oddball
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by Oddball » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:03 am

The problem there is Emi would have never wanted to talk about it and was willing to end the relationship rather than having to face her own issues, and these had been issues for her for years.
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Mirage_GSM
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by Mirage_GSM » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:05 am

Who is or isn't mature largely depends pn how you define maturity.

If you consider someone mature just because they are sexually open, then, yes, Emi is quite mature. Her inability to open up to even the people closest
to her however is not mature at all. Now, she has a valid reason for that problem, but that's beside the point.

Lilly acts very maturely most of the time, but the way she hides her problems from both her best friend and her boyfriend is one of the most immature acts in the whole VN, and it reveals that most of the maturity she tries to project is nothing but a facade.

If you look at it that way none of the girls nor Hisao (except possibly Rin, but just because it's hard to judge her by normal standards) are really mature, and that's one of the good things about KS: None of the characters are perfect. They all have their flaws. And none of the flaws have anything to do with their disabilities.

As for Jigoro, I think Prof's assessment is quite... benevolent...
Emi > Misha > Hanako > Lilly > Rin > Shizune

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SpunkySix
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by SpunkySix » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:24 pm

I feel like trying to categorize an ending that is basically just a fairly normal mid-point in a young person's life as happy or sad isn't possible, at least if you want to capture the full range of emotions associated with it. The main trio in that ending are all moving on to potentially better things and there's a sense of triumph in that, but they're also leaving a lot behind. That's life, and it's not really a good or a bad thing. It just is.
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marantana
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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by marantana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:26 pm

Mirage_GSM wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:05 am
Who is or isn't mature largely depends pn how you define maturity.
Obviously true.
Mirage_GSM wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:05 am
If you consider someone mature just because they are sexually open, then, yes, Emi is quite mature. Her inability to open up to even the people closest
to her however is not mature at all. Now, she has a valid reason for that problem, but that's beside the point.
Sexuality is not the kind of maturity I meant. As you say, she has valid reasons for being like she is. You're probably right, but I saw maturity shimmering through all that.
Mirage_GSM wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:05 am
Lilly acts very maturely most of the time, but the way she hides her problems from both her best friend and her boyfriend is one of the most immature acts in the whole VN, and it reveals that most of the maturity she tries to project is nothing but a facade.
Let's agree to disagree.
Mirage_GSM wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:05 am
If you look at it that way none of the girls nor Hisao (except possibly Rin, but just because it's hard to judge her by normal standards) are really mature, and that's one of the good things about KS: None of the characters are perfect. They all have their flaws. And none of the flaws have anything to do with their disabilities.
Having less than perfect and even flawed characters absolutely is one of best things in KS, also the story centering about disabled persons being as just like any other human is very good. To me it also is the reason for their relative maturity compared to others the same age.

Then again, I'm an "old" man and a deeply "flawed" person myself, so I might a) be wrong, and b) have a slightly different view on those issues.

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Re: Shizune's "Good" Ending -- Sad or Happy?

Post by marantana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:30 pm

SpunkySix wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:24 pm
I feel like trying to categorize an ending that is basically just a fairly normal mid-point in a young person's life as happy or sad isn't possible, at least if you want to capture the full range of emotions associated with it. The main trio in that ending are all moving on to potentially better things and there's a sense of triumph in that, but they're also leaving a lot behind. That's life, and it's not really a good or a bad thing. It just is.
That's true. As I just said in another reply, I'm way too old to remember those details, and also mentally far too flawed to really talk competently about these matters, because I myself definitely didn't have a normal childhood, and mostly not a normal youth and adolescence either.

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