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Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:43 pm
by Disgruntled
emmjay wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:05 am
Disgruntled wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:41 pm
"What Hanako is always like" was his first sentence. You've been here for years and still fail to understand her :lol:
Uh, no, "This is Hanako" was his first sentence. The words "What Hanako is always like" appear nowhere in his post.
And that's all I'm going to say on this matter, because it's obvious your mind is made up, and no amount of reason will convince you.
Semantics, and by the way what you've been posting isn't "reason".
Downix wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:09 am
Disgruntled wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:10 pm
Downix wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:36 pm
Has the OP ever actually played the route? The direct text within it discredits the claims made. And without the route text there is no basis for the discussion to begin with.
None of the text in it discredits the claims made.
Yes, it does. The entire closing act, to the point.
Not even close. When all you do is state a contrary claim without evidence, all I have to do to rebut it is say the opposite.
AdamL wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:17 am
Nothing you've read in your life is this bad? I suggest you could read more.

People who start off just friends can have sex. People who've never met before can have sex. People can have sex that isn't perfectly wholesome and fulfilling and orgasmic, and can even have sex when consent is not clear-as-crystal verbally confirmed (they shouldn't, but they do).

I don't see how "full frontal explicit" relates to the rest of your argument.

Hisao wears a condom having sex with Emi at least once; I don't recall every instance of the other routes, and it's probably problematic that he doesn't think about contraception as much as he ideally should, but again, this seems tangential to the central consent issue.

I don't see much "mystery" in why Hisao is "messed up". And his "finishing" (and I speak from personal experience on this) doesn't mean that the sex was wholly enjoyable, or free from any difficulties or uncomfortable moments.

On a tangent, does the OP (or anyone else for that matter) concur then that, if we are to consider Hanako and Hisao's first sexual encounter as a rape, would Shizune and Hisao's first encounter not also fulfil that definition? She does not receive his express permission (taken to its fullest extent *nobody* ever asks "May I have sex with you?" in the whole of KS), but moreover ties his hands to a chair so he is literally unable to give consent to a deaf-mute.
You might misunderstand Hanako even more than the last idiot who was here for years if you think she's some skank who sleeps around and wants casual sex with people she has barely known for a month.
With Emi he has a rubber after they've been together for a while, he doesn't immediately pounce once Emi seems vulnerable.
You clearly don't speak from experience if you think pouncing on someone when they want to show you their trauma, and finishing when they don't is defensible.
And Shizune's might be rape, but trying to derail this thread is futile. If you think Shizune's route is even close to as bad as Hanako's, maybe you can make a thread for it, where nobody will really care since it's not blatantly abusive toward the route's girl.


Weak posts all around, guys.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:30 pm
by Downix
Disgruntled wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:43 pm
Downix wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:09 am
Disgruntled wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:10 pm


None of the text in it discredits the claims made.
Yes, it does. The entire closing act, to the point.
Not even close. When all you do is state a contrary claim without evidence, all I have to do to rebut it is say the opposite.
But I left a citation, namely the closing act. That is, in debate, considered evidence.

Let us explore further, shall we?


Hanako: I thought… you might eventually go away if I was only someone you needed to protect. I thought that if I let you do that… you might see me as someone more than that.

My first reaction is disbelief, but… I did do it with her, after all. I had plenty of opportunities where I could have stopped things, stepped back, and questioned what we were doing. In the end, though… I didn't.

A horrible feeling rises in the pit of my stomach. She offered herself to me because of what she thought I wanted, and now, it feels like I took advantage of her. She may have been willing, but only under false premises.


-------

Literally says it right there, willing. That word, as it sits, invalidates the entire argument.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:19 pm
by brythain
Disgruntled wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:43 pm
When all you do is state a contrary claim without evidence, all I have to do to rebut it is say the opposite.
No, that just leaves two unsupported claims. For example: 'Pink unicorns exist' vs 'pink unicorns don't exist'. Neither rebuts the other, since there is evidence for neither.
Weak posts all around, guys.
I agree, starting with the first post.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:44 pm
by AdamL
Misrepresenting someone's words as a direct quote when it isn't is not "semantics" - I can think of a shorter word for it...
Disgruntled wrote: You might misunderstand Hanako even more than the last idiot who was here for years if you think she's some skank who sleeps around and wants casual sex with people she has barely known for a month.
"Some skank" is your phrase, not mine, though it does shed light on how you perceive women who do enjoy casual sex.
With Emi he has a rubber after they've been together for a while, he doesn't immediately pounce once Emi seems vulnerable.
He doesn't "immediately pounce" on Hanako, either. Case in point - her birthday party earlier on, where she is drunk and even more vulnerable than usual and left alone with him and actively pushing herself on him. If Hisao were the skulking sexual predator you make him out to be, what stops him from taking advantage of that situation right there and then? I suggest it's because he isn't, in fact, That Sorta Guy.
You clearly don't speak from experience if you think pouncing on someone when they want to show you their trauma, and finishing when they don't is defensible.
I was referring only to the latter; as in, just because I ejaculate at the end of sex and she doesn't, or she does and I don't, or we both do or both don't - whatever outcome, it is not the ultimate measure of whether the entire experience was good or not. Also, while it informs the opinion, having direct experience with a subject isn't necessary to have an opinion (though, again, I have both).

I have nothing to say about the rest, other than it seems there's a fair bit of disagreement with you regarding it being "blatantly abusive" and "indefensible". I don't think your polemical bombast is going to work, though I wish you well nonetheless.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:55 pm
by Disgruntled
It's not like Hanako's route was subverted on accident

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:40 pm
by Silentcook
Disgruntled wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:55 pm
It's not like Hanako's route was subverted on accident
You're entitled to your opinion, despite all you've done on these forums, and we don't have specific rules concerning multiple accounts. But agreeing with yourself under a different username in the same thread crosses the line. Most recent username restored and post editlocked.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 pm
by Disgruntled
Silentcook wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:40 pm
Disgruntled wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:55 pm
It's not like Hanako's route was subverted on accident
You're entitled to your opinion, despite all you've done on these forums, and we don't have specific rules concerning multiple accounts. But agreeing with yourself under a different username in the same thread crosses the line. Most recent username restored and post editlocked.
How would you feel if I said you were secretly agreeing with yourself, and then edited your posts to try and convince others it was true? You're pathetic

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:00 pm
by TubaMirum
question1 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 pm
How would you feel if I said you were secretly agreeing with yourself, and then edited your posts to try and convince others it was true? You're pathetic
"What's an IP address"

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 pm
by question1
TubaMirum wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:00 pm
question1 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 pm
How would you feel if I said you were secretly agreeing with yourself, and then edited your posts to try and convince others it was true? You're pathetic
"What's an IP address"
What, you actually believe someone who edits others' posts to get back at them? They obviously didn't match, otherwise I wouldn't have even brought it up

It's actually quite clear he just wants to derail the thread like some common troll, unsurprising for a KS dev

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:00 am
by TubaMirum
question1 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 pm
TubaMirum wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:00 pm
question1 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 pm
How would you feel if I said you were secretly agreeing with yourself, and then edited your posts to try and convince others it was true? You're pathetic
"What's an IP address"
What, you actually believe someone who edits others' posts to get back at them? They obviously didn't match, otherwise I wouldn't have even brought it up

It's actually quite clear he just wants to derail the thread like some common troll, unsurprising for a KS dev
It's actually quite clear that I'm dealing with a lunatic who will claim they're two different persons without actually bothering to act like two different persons.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:05 am
by Downix
TubaMirum wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:00 am
question1 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 pm
TubaMirum wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:00 pm


"What's an IP address"
What, you actually believe someone who edits others' posts to get back at them? They obviously didn't match, otherwise I wouldn't have even brought it up

It's actually quite clear he just wants to derail the thread like some common troll, unsurprising for a KS dev
It's actually quite clear that I'm dealing with a lunatic who will claim they're two different persons without actually bothering to act like two different persons.
I've heard of arguing with oneself....

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:20 am
by Disgruntled
TubaMirum wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:00 am
question1 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 pm
TubaMirum wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:00 pm


"What's an IP address"
What, you actually believe someone who edits others' posts to get back at them? They obviously didn't match, otherwise I wouldn't have even brought it up

It's actually quite clear he just wants to derail the thread like some common troll, unsurprising for a KS dev
It's actually quite clear that I'm dealing with a lunatic who will claim they're two different persons without actually bothering to act like two different persons.
It's actually quite clear that if you actually believed "him" (yourself), the "lunatic" who needs a stay in the mental hospital is you. You don't even act any differently than when you're logged in as Silentcook.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:08 am
by Mirage_GSM
Maybe we should all stop feeding the troll.
He'll either go away on his own or annoy SC enough to ban him completely.

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:45 am
by TubaMirum
Mirage_GSM wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:08 am
Maybe we should all stop feeding the troll.
He'll either go away on his own or annoy SC enough to ban him completely.
Excuse me if I dare to say I'd much prefer the latter option 8)

Re: Hanako's route is indefensible

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:34 am
by TheHivemind
Well, this got stupid quick.

We've discussed, at length, what our intentions were for Hanako's route. If we didn't succeed in that, well, that's on us and it's a bummer.

If you think for a second that means I'm particularly invested in having y'all lob insults at one another like children and posting from sockpuppet accounts, well, I guess this time you get to be wrong, because I'm locking this asinine thread before it goes any further. If If you have beef with the topic being locked, feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll happily read your argument for why your use of sockpuppets or insults was totally okay because you're unhappy with a video game's writing.