The problem with Shizune

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BMFJack
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:55 am

brythain wrote:Shizune is nothing like Jigoro.
That's just your opinion though, right? ;)

Seriously though, we don't have the slightest clue what Jigoro would do when courting someone since we have no context. While Jigoro may appear to have no self-loathing at all, he's had a much longer time to come up with a coping mechanism for those feelings than Shizune has. Shizune wants to do things for others. Maybe Jigoro did when he was a teenager too, then when he grew up he realized that the only person that can help someone is themselves, so now he wants others to do things for themselves.

Now, this here:
Shizune wrote:[But I didn't like her because I thought she was selfish, always holding us up in order to tend to one friend of hers or another]
Along with this:
Shizune wrote:[...that she could be so nice and still take so many people for granted. Why even join the Student Council, then? It seemed so shortsighted and selfish]
Both of those sound strange to me. Am I the only one?

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:29 am

BMFJack wrote:
brythain wrote:Shizune is nothing like Jigoro.
That's just your opinion though, right? ;)
Heh, no... that's rhetorical exaggeration. She is of course a little bit like Jigoro. He is her father, after all.
Seriously though, we don't have the slightest clue what Jigoro would do when courting someone since we have no context. While Jigoro may appear to have no self-loathing at all, he's had a much longer time to come up with a coping mechanism for those feelings than Shizune has. Shizune wants to do things for others. Maybe Jigoro did when he was a teenager too, then when he grew up he realized that the only person that can help someone is themselves, so now he wants others to do things for themselves.[/quote]
As you say, we don't have the slightest clue, and only the text as presented.
BMFJack wrote:Now, this here:
Shizune wrote:[But I didn't like her because I thought she was selfish, always holding us up in order to tend to one friend of hers or another]
Along with this:
Shizune wrote:[...that she could be so nice and still take so many people for granted. Why even join the Student Council, then? It seemed so shortsighted and selfish]
Both of those sound strange to me. Am I the only one?
To Shizune, Lilly is nice to individuals at the expense of causing inconvenience to the larger group. But the point of the Student Council is to run school-level functions.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Charmant » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:19 pm

brythain wrote:To Shizune, Lilly is nice to individuals at the expense of causing inconvenience to the larger group.
Standard Japanese mindset, isn't that? Lilly's just been corrupted by Scots...

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Eurobeatjester » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:15 am

Charmant wrote:
brythain wrote:To Shizune, Lilly is nice to individuals at the expense of causing inconvenience to the larger group.
Standard Japanese mindset, isn't that? Lilly's just been corrupted by Scots...
Pretty much. Groupthink wants you to be nice and accommodating without being to extreme about it, as it can be seen as a way to try and gain recognition for yourself with a "look how nice I am" outlook. It's a trait in most Asian cultures but few take it to the levels that the Japanese do.

It's also one of the reasons that the culture clash between the younger and older generations is a lot more pronounced than it is in the "west"
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:41 am

Eurobeatjester wrote:
Charmant wrote:
brythain wrote:To Shizune, Lilly is nice to individuals at the expense of causing inconvenience to the larger group.
Standard Japanese mindset, isn't that? Lilly's just been corrupted by Scots...
Pretty much. Groupthink wants you to be nice and accommodating without being to extreme about it, as it can be seen as a way to try and gain recognition for yourself with a "look how nice I am" outlook. It's a trait in most Asian cultures but few take it to the levels that the Japanese do.

It's also one of the reasons that the culture clash between the younger and older generations is a lot more pronounced than it is in the "west"
I don't think that's necessarily the case now. Postwar it certainly was. But there's nothing groupthink about it, really; it's just that as groups, East Asians tend to come to a consensus before telling outsiders about it, which looks like groupthink from outside. The internal debates get quite ferocious. In Shizune's case, I'm sure they had many stormy confrontations in that household, but Hisao never gets to see the real story of what happened -in- Shizune's family because he's still an outsider, and I'm willing to bet that even Hideaki was actively concealing information from him, no matter how open he might've been about certain things.

This means that expectations for a 'westerner' approaching a Japanese situation should be lowered as to extent of disclosure. The idea of full disclosure to outsiders has never been a natural human one. 'Westerners' tend to want to invert the order as if everyone is in-group—the idea that before we can be friends you have to tell me everything, rather than we be friends first and over time I will trust you and tell you everything. 'We can never truly be friends unless you tell me everything' will probably elicit a look of incredulity from most people around the world.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:32 am

My computer is dead and in service, so I'm on my phone--bear with me as it is impossible (and bothersome) to type long post.

Also:
Good to have you back, prof :D

Now then...

Firstly, what I meant by similar to Jigoro's late-wife falls in the category of her physical features and--what I have a theory of--her sense of 'order'. Rereading and observing Jigoro for a while (as a research for the next chapter of my writing--60% done if you're wondering before my PC was toast) made me wonder whether he is a man of order, or that of a rebel. Being the 'head' of a household, naturally makes him a man of order, but has he always been like that before? The way how he dress, how he talks, and how he presents himself is far from what most people here considers 'normal' (aside from the hostity he presents towards those that approaches his daughter--that's normal) which led me to believe that he was a man of rebel before, but had since been 'tamed' by someone of 'order'--that being, her late-wife. We never knew Shizune's mother, so everything is up to speculation but let's get back to Shizune.

Shizune is someone whom upholds order--her position as SC president further accentuates(?) this feature of hers. She's one who prioritize the good of the entire group/community rather than the individual (a different side of the coin to Lilly), which I believe she saw as disrupting that 'order' in the time of crises. This, aside from her physical features, is what Jigoro may have seen in her that reminded him of his late-wife. All just a theory though.

Of course, Shizune is the daughter of Jigoro after all and the apple never fall far from its tree, so obviously she would inherit some traits and character from him (which is easy to 'find the similarity and match'--the others that aren't match-able can be linked to her mother, or her own).


Secondly, on cultures and 'groupthink'.
I've explained over and over again how we as a people are enclosed--has been the same even in the Meiji-era, still the same in Heisei. I can't hate it, nor can I love it--that's just us and frankly, I'm comfortable with it. Now this may seem offensive to some, and to that I apologize, but the difference between western and asian culture concerning the sharing of ideas is very obvious:

We share our belief when both sides have a significant level of understanding of cultures between one another, bit by bit. When both sides agreed, then we'll get to business. Westerners on the other hand tend to impose their belief of a specific culyure on others. I don't know how many times I have to take a deep breath and calm down when someone thinks this is how 'you people are' then demands that it is 'the right one'--no, it isn't, stop forcing us to do something that you think out culture is/are/should do.

...the last one is more or less a rant, but I can't help it. Talking about Shizune and how much she's misunderstood sometimes triggers that.:lol:

And thirdly, as mentioned before, Shizune is someone who's priority lies on the benefit of the greater crowd than that of the individual--the other side of the coin to Lilly, who'd lose her head to an individual and leaving chaos within the group to be settled by someone else (this applies to her 'good' ending as well).
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:21 am

Megumeru wrote:Now then...
[STUFF]
Absolutely agree. But I've realised that it's something really, really hard to empathise with, for people from certain backgrounds. Somehow, while trumpeting diversity, they are unable to conceive of true differences because... 'universal human values'. The problem lies in the distinction between 'values' and 'evaluations'. The exception comes from certain kinds of eclectic SF fans, who can conceive of unusual societies and understand how they work. Generally, the universalist position finds it hard to discriminate—in all sense of that loaded word.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by ProfAllister » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:08 am

Well, on the whole Lilly vs Shizune priorities, I think you're all going a bit too far talking about larger cultures and all that.

In my eyes, it's a whole lot simpler than that. Shizune sees taking part in the Student Council as a commitment - if you aren't serious about doing what needs to be done to make a good Student Council, you shouldn't be in it. Lilly sees it as, well, an after school activity.

Student Councils, as I understand, are a sort of mock government for the student body. Using that analogy, Lilly ignoring Student Council duties to focus on the concerns of her friends would be like JFK ignoring an urgent call about the Cuban Missile Crisis because he's attending his daughter's ballet recital. It's normal, and even expected, for most fathers to prioritize a daughter's ballet recital over job-related concerns; but when your job entails avoiding thermonuclear annihilation, ignoring the call in favor of that ballet recital is a bit more likely to scandalize and indicate questionable priorities.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Oddball » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:36 am

Student Councils, as I understand, are a sort of mock government for the student body. Using that analogy, Lilly ignoring Student Council duties to focus on the concerns of her friends would be like JFK ignoring an urgent call about the Cuban Missile Crisis because he's attending his daughter's ballet recital. It's normal, and even expected, for most fathers to prioritize a daughter's ballet recital over job-related concerns; but when your job entails avoiding thermonuclear annihilation, ignoring the call in favor of that ballet recital is a bit more likely to scandalize and indicate questionable priorities.
Now there's an overly dramatized comparison. :roll:

Lilly and Shizune both want to help people. Lilly is just more sensitive to individual people, while Shizune looks at people as a massive group that she wants to help, and in the process alienates.

Frankly, I believe Shizune was exaggerating Lilly's tendency to ignore student council duties. She probably did put them on back burner to an extent, but I doubt it was as bad as Shizune was making it seem. She does tend to be overly judgmental in that area. Even then, from Lilly's perspective, I'm sure she thought that the student council could carry on without her (which Shizune would most certainly agree with) while helping her friends was something she needed to do herself.


I've always found it funny how Shizune criticizes Lilly for putting everything aside to help people then says she wants to be a philanthropist.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:55 am

Oddball wrote:I've always found it funny how Shizune criticizes Lilly for putting everything aside to help people then says she wants to be a philanthropist.
I think Shizune would say that if being a philanthropist is your 'everything' then that's not a problem. Her issue was that Lilly didn't actually carry out the functional duty she was supposed to—that's their point of contention in the VN too, that Lilly's returns are on the verge of being tardy.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Oddball » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:16 am

brythain wrote:
Oddball wrote:I've always found it funny how Shizune criticizes Lilly for putting everything aside to help people then says she wants to be a philanthropist.
I think Shizune would say that if being a philanthropist is your 'everything' then that's not a problem.
I'm sure she would. I just wonder what kind of philanthropist shes going to be if the idea of "being a philanthropist" is more important to her than the idea of actually helping people.
Her issue was that Lilly didn't actually carry out the functional duty she was supposed to—that's their point of contention in the VN too, that Lilly's returns are on the verge of being tardy.
Yeah. It's only okay to break the rules and put off work when Shizune does it. :P
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:19 am

Oddball wrote:
brythain wrote:
Oddball wrote:I've always found it funny how Shizune criticizes Lilly for putting everything aside to help people then says she wants to be a philanthropist.
I think Shizune would say that if being a philanthropist is your 'everything' then that's not a problem.
I'm sure she would. I just wonder what kind of philanthropist shes going to be if the idea of "being a philanthropist" is more important to her than the idea of actually helping people.
The point would be that if she had set herself the duty of effectively helping people through disbursement of funding, then it's not a problem because it is her 'official' duty.
Her issue was that Lilly didn't actually carry out the functional duty she was supposed to—that's their point of contention in the VN too, that Lilly's returns are on the verge of being tardy.
Yeah. It's only okay to break the rules and put off work when Shizune does it. :P
I think that's one of her internal conflicts. She actually bends the rules because she's in love with Hisao. But she always insists on doing 'enough work' first. I know a lot of people like that in East Asia. They work overtime a few days before they go on leave, so that they can go on leave with a clear conscience.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Oddball » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:31 am

I think that's one of her internal conflicts. She actually bends the rules because she's in love with Hisao.
I can't say I agree on that. That might be why she bends some of the rules, but they apparently cut classes and sent in reports of stuff they just made up before Hisao even transferred.

She's human though. I'm not going to fault her for that. We all half-ass our work sometimes. The problem is her being a bitch about when other people do it.
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Charmant
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Charmant » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:54 pm

Oddball wrote:
I think that's one of her internal conflicts. She actually bends the rules because she's in love with Hisao.
I can't say I agree on that. That might be why she bends some of the rules, but they apparently cut classes and sent in reports of stuff they just made up before Hisao even transferred.

She's human though. I'm not going to fault her for that. We all half-ass our work sometimes. The problem is her being a bitch about when other people do it.
Double standards and hypocrisy are unfortunately human too.

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Liminaut » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:21 am

Shizune has a demonstrated habit of falsifying financial reports and playing fast and loose with discretionary funds. These habits bode rather poorly for a future incarceration-free lifestyle.

A note about philanthropy: if one person is directing the money, then that one person can be controlling the action and making all the decisions. (More effective philanthropists find a good organization and trust people there to do the work.) Philanthropy can then becomes a simultaneous exercise in egotism and sanctimony, albeit with a good end. It's been seen a lot in the tech industry; people make a mint by getting lucky and then thinking they know everything. If her performance with the Student Council is any indication, any philanthropy Shizune works with may suddenly have a very high turnover rate.

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