The problem with Shizune

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:19 pm

This post exploded more than I anticipated, I can't keep up XD
Anyway,
BMFJack wrote:I honestly think you've thought entirely too deeply about this. The devs didn't intent to simulate a perfectly realistic Japanese environment when they created Katawa Shoujo, they've said as much.
The wonderful things about games in general is that we're ALLOWED to over think things. Most of what we talk about has never been declared cannon/non-cannon by the writers, so we're free to run with it.

The way I see the whole Shizune debacle is:

Shizune is too grounded in her ways to really change, she doesn't want to CHASE someone, she wants someone who will chase her, but by that she wants them to show they can keep up and will keep trying. In reality Hisao never fully (In my eyes at least) is equal with Shizune. He is always trying to keep up with her, but this something they both need. He pushed her to do better because she doesn't want to slack behind him, and she pulls him up and makes him choose to push himself to keep up with her because he wants to be with her and understand everything. It's a game. A game of who can learn what the other wants to say first. This is a game Shizune wants to LOSE. Why? Because she wants Hisao to prove he loves her, and will keep following her.
"Can you tell me what you think?" Shizune wants, no, NEEDS Hisao to chase her. It's the only way she knows how to move on with life. If there isn't a challenge she can't improve. The challenge for her is always not being able to speak. It's been said for her when she uses words they carry a lot of "Ooomph" and they do. She communicates via action. All the little things she does is her attmept to get Hisao to notice and stop being a lump of depressed meat (Doesn't THAT sound weird).

Misha loves Shizune. We know this, after her initial rejection she decided to stay with Shizune due to her love. She knew Shizune would never love her back but she hoped that maybe it could be. Hisao sealed that nail in the coffin. She then gets depressed because she feels that she server no purpose, since Hisao learns sign language. Eventually Hisao and Shizune make her realize that she is still their friend, regardless of her feelings for Shizune or if she translates. They make her understand that even though Shizune rejected her and eventually choose Hisao, no one WANTS her to leave. They WANT her to stay and be their friend.

Lastly we come to Hisao. He was just another kid, then his heart attack happened. Then he felt like a worthless broken piece of crap.
This is a great picture, it shows how depressed he really was at the start. Regardless of who, one of the girls finds a way to pull him out of his rut. Shizune does this by inspiring him to do better than she can. He DESIRES to chase her, he wants to do better and tries to follow her.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnyway, this has been a wonderful discussion so far and I've actually learned quite a bit about different ways we interpret this kind of stuff. So thanks!
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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brythain
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:02 pm

That wall of text brought a tear to my eye. Next up, I shall write more Shizune. :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:07 pm

brythain wrote:That wall of text brought a tear to my eye. Next up, I shall write more Shizune. :)
:O DID I INSPIRE YOU?
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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brythain
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:28 pm

minimike96 wrote:
brythain wrote:That wall of text brought a tear to my eye. Next up, I shall write more Shizune. :)
:O DID I INSPIRE YOU?
You'll know it when you see it. Don't hang around, mind. Sometimes gestation takes a looooooooong time... :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Megumeru
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:27 pm

That wall of text...
Image
Couldn't have said it any better :D
Image
They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
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Oddball
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Oddball » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:30 am

Problems with Shizune...

Before we even GET to Shizune, let's look at the people around her. By the end of the first route, she's yelled at Emi, Rin, Lilly, and intimidated Hanako (which isn't that hard granted) so it's very easy to see her as the "bad guy" if you're a fan of the other girls. Plus she repeatedly drags Hisao along for things she doesn't want to do.

Now if you get past that and admire her for what she is, she's still the subtle one that you have to stop and think about to really get.... and she;'s standing next to Jigoro, Misha, and Hideaki, the loudest, least subtle characters in the game. It's like trying to study for a philosophy test while you're room mate is jumping on the bed and blasting heavy metal music with the dial turned up to max. She gets lost in her own story. The fact that Misha actually has a MORE tragic subplot than her doesn't help much either.

For just a second, let's compare her to Emi. Out of all the cast, these two are the most focused on improving. Emi may drag you along, and makes you do things, she focuses on how improving things can be FUN, while Shizune seems to focus on doing hard work for the sake of being able to say you did hard work. While Emi will keep pace with you but still push you do do harder before she takes off and does her own thing, Shizune give it all from the get go and if you can't keep up, that's your problem.
Not Dead Yet

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:46 am

Oddball wrote: For just a second, let's compare her to Emi. Out of all the cast, these two are the most focused on improving. Emi may drag you along, and makes you do things, she focuses on how improving things can be FUN, while Shizune seems to focus on doing hard work for the sake of being able to say you did hard work. While Emi will keep pace with you but still push you do do harder before she takes off and does her own thing, Shizune give it all from the get go and if you can't keep up, that's your problem.
The thing about the whole "Pushing them to do better" part, is that Emi & Shizune are different people. Hisao changes depending on the route you take.

With Emi he feels obligated to "White Knight" her. He sees a hurting and weak girl and he wants to help her. Idealy he forgets the "White Knight" mentality and just moves on WITH her instead of carrying her. They move TOGETHER. That is how THEY work.

He takes the longest to stop being depressed in Shizune's Route. Shizune shows him that working towards you goals will always lead you to "victory". In her route he feels that that is true and decides he will work towards anything. When she tries to leave him behind (Which for her is really a test to see if he's willing to understand who she is) he decides that he isn't going to sit and let that happen. He tries his best to catch up because he wants to prove to her that he understands her.
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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Atario
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Atario » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:46 pm

Oddball wrote:Shizune seems to focus on doing hard work for the sake of being able to say you did hard work.
I think she (explicitly says she) does it for the sake of the greater public good and/or happiness.
NB: none of the above is a request

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:51 pm

Atario wrote:
Oddball wrote:Shizune seems to focus on doing hard work for the sake of being able to say you did hard work.
I think she (explicitly says she) does it for the sake of the greater public good and/or happiness.
Shizune wrote: [All I wanted was to... make people happy, I think]
:wink:
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Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

YZQ
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by YZQ » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:14 am

Ultimately, I feel that Shizune is as misunderstood as Rin, with Shizune having the added kicker of being very articulate with her words.... and still ending up with the mess. Notice how in her quote above, she isn't even sure if she wants to make people happy. I'm very sure that she does have the intention, but she's not doing it in a way where people appreciates it.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by dewelar » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:54 pm

YZQ wrote:Ultimately, I feel that Shizune is as misunderstood as Rin, with Shizune having the added kicker of being very articulate with her words.... and still ending up with the mess. Notice how in her quote above, she isn't even sure if she wants to make people happy. I'm very sure that she does have the intention, but she's not doing it in a way where people appreciates it.
While she wants to make people happy, she also wants to be recognized for it.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:39 pm

dewelar wrote:
YZQ wrote:Ultimately, I feel that Shizune is as misunderstood as Rin, with Shizune having the added kicker of being very articulate with her words.... and still ending up with the mess. Notice how in her quote above, she isn't even sure if she wants to make people happy. I'm very sure that she does have the intention, but she's not doing it in a way where people appreciates it.
While she wants to make people happy, she also wants to be recognized for it.
Nothing is wrong with wanting recognition. She does it because she wants to. Yes she wants to be recognized for helping people, but she genuinely wants to help people.
Or at least she wants to help Hisao and the school (Why else would she out so much effort into the Student Council or helping Mr.Depressed lump of meat over there?)
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by dewelar » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:02 pm

minimike96 wrote:
dewelar wrote:
YZQ wrote:Ultimately, I feel that Shizune is as misunderstood as Rin, with Shizune having the added kicker of being very articulate with her words.... and still ending up with the mess. Notice how in her quote above, she isn't even sure if she wants to make people happy. I'm very sure that she does have the intention, but she's not doing it in a way where people appreciates it.
While she wants to make people happy, she also wants to be recognized for it.
Nothing is wrong with wanting recognition. She does it because she wants to. Yes she wants to be recognized for helping people, but she genuinely wants to help people.
Or at least she wants to help Hisao and the school (Why else would she out so much effort into the Student Council or helping Mr.Depressed lump of meat over there?)
Right. I'm just pointing out that for Shizune, the two seem linked, in that helping for the sake of helping doesn't seem to be enough for her. Without the acknowledgement of the person/organization being helped, she seems to think the gesture is an empty one ex post facto. However, that doesn't stop her from continuing to make such gestures, which is very much a point in her favor, although it can also be seen as simply continuing to chase such recognition. As noted from her own statement above, she may truly not be sure herself of which it is. These are the things that make her the excellently complex character she is.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Liminaut » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:28 pm

People aren't the most accurate reports of their own motivations, especially not fictional people :)

Shizune says "[All I wanted was to... make people happy, I think]".

The factual nature of this is that Shizune strongly believes that her motivation is to make people happy. Looking at the results of what she did, she wasn't very successful at that. She managed to make the student council melt down. She didn't make Lilly very happy. She ran Misha into the ground, although at the end Shizune was really trying. I think the only person she succeeded in making happy was Hisao, and she did a pretty good job there. She pulled him out of his bad depression and got him going in life.

I think Shizune and Emi are tied for who actually helped Hisao the most.

It seems to me that Shizune got a lot better at helping people after Hisao came into her life. My interpretation is that Hisao provided a vital supporting, "maternal", Ying aspect to her life that was missing with the absence of her mother.

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:04 am

Liminaut wrote:It seems to me that Shizune got a lot better at helping people after Hisao came into her life. My interpretation is that Hisao provided a vital supporting, "maternal", Ying aspect to her life that was missing with the absence of her mother.
That's a very interesting take on it. I was thinking along those lines myself, but you've said it very well. I would go further and suspect that it's her mother, not her father, that had the deathmatch competitive streak. Jigoro doesn't do competitive. He just asserts he's the best. I suspect Shizune's mother actually kept trying to force him to prove it.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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