The problem with Shizune

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BMFJack
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:09 am

brythain wrote:Go through the written interaction that Shizune has with Hisao, in which she explicitly says that the stalls she showed Hisao around during the festival were the ones he had built, because... "I wanted you to be able to see and enjoy what you had done." Hisao himself says he is touched by this, but he wonders why she would go out of her way to do it, and she replies, "Because you were depressed." She then wishes him luck on the exam that is to come.
This doesn't show any particular caring; she's the Student Council president and it's very common in Japan for students to care for each other on this level purely out of obligation.
brythain wrote:Hisao then decides he wants to learn sign language because he's sad that he had to converse with her through written notes. Later, when he talks to Misha, Misha tells him, "Now that you've joined [the student council] , she [i.e. Shizune] works harder than before since she wants to make a good impression." In that same conversation, we learn that at the very least, Shizune finds Hisao interesting and was happy that he'd joined.
I'm pretty sure Shizune would be happy if anyone joined the Student Council. It's been just her an Misha all that time, and IIRC Shizune only keeps Misha around because she doesn't want to be lonely.
brythain wrote:When they reassemble the stalls for Tanabata later, Shizune brings him an extra can of drink, and says that if he's going to be so helpful, she should look out for him too. She says she's impressed and very happy that Hisao bothered to learn sign language.

Her own father refuses to learn sign language, so the fact that anyone learned it for her sake would be impressive.
brythain wrote:During their second stall-assembly session, she makes lunch for him, and stresses that the important thing in a relationship is choice (ironic on a meta level, since our protagonist doesn't have much of that)... Lilly comes along and the two squabble, while Hisao reluctantly (and deviously) translates. Later, Shizune reveals indirectly that she can read his lips, by praising his ability to translate.
I'm not even sure what you're getting at here, except maybe the lunch, which I think she only did because it's what she thought she should do as his girlfriend.
brythain wrote:The best part of Act 2 is that at the end, when Hisao asks her if she wants to be his girlfriend, and she steps forward to him, agreeing. It's not Shizune doing the wooing; it's Hisao, and she's allowed herself to be wooed, and she is surprised by everything that's happening to her—to them.
That's kind of the thing... women don't chase men, especially in Japan, so while Hisao was indeed the one that took all the steps pre-relationship, it was Shizune that gave him the strong signals that enabled him to feel comfortable doing so. Of course she's surprised; normally her attempts at friendship run people off. Luckily for her, Hisao is pretty much a blank slate.
brythain wrote:Now, I do suppose that you could want more control over the relationship, but then if you did, where's Shizune's agency in terms of showing that she cares for you? And does wooing someone automatically make the acts involved -not- acts of caring? I think that in many Asian societies, what Shizune does in Act 2 alone constitutes a fair bit of positive signalling. Misha certainly sees it as that, if you look carefully.
Not concerned about control over the relationship, only about Shizune's emotional involvement. Even given that though, Shizune does have the vast majority of the control in their relationship, and still manages to fail to convey that she cares on anything more than a friendship-level. Wooing someone doesn't automatically indicate caring... though I'm sure it's less common in Japan and even less common among Japanese teenagers, people do fake relationships. And Shizune sure is lonely. Coupled with her father issues, I'd say it's more a psychological need for male attention that convinced her to try to make Hisao her boyfriend than any kind of attraction or caring.

I also think Misha is simply jealous that Shizune finally has someone to pay attention to besides Misha.

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:11 am

BMFJack wrote:Not concerned about control over the relationship, only about Shizune's emotional involvement. Even given that though, Shizune does have the vast majority of the control in their relationship, and still manages to fail to convey that she cares on anything more than a friendship-level. Wooing someone doesn't automatically indicate caring... though I'm sure it's less common in Japan and even less common among Japanese teenagers, people do fake relationships. And Shizune sure is lonely. Coupled with her father issues, I'd say it's more a psychological need for male attention that convinced her to try to make Hisao her boyfriend than any kind of attraction or caring.
And that is the nub of the issue. There is no evidence that would persuade you, that cannot be explained away. I'm quite sure that if any woman tried to do anything nice for you, you'd ask yourself, 'What rational reason could she have for doing so?' and if you were so bent on excluding the 'cares for you' reason, you'd do it. Think about the excuses you're giving: 1) she has the vast majority of control (no, it's an artefact of the player having few active choices); 2) various 'she has other reasons to do it and hence those other reasons must be true' explanations (so why not that she cares, then); 3) Jigoro appears to be an asshat and she has a psychological need for attention that somehow she has not inflicted on any of the many other boys in the school. :D

Try this experiment: is it possible to explain away all the other girls that way? I bet you could do it if you tried. :D
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Megumeru
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:53 am

I have a lot of catching up to do •_•

I'll get to it once exams are done and work doesn't poke around anymore
minimike96 wrote:
dewelar wrote:Yes and no. Sometimes providing support and/or working from behind the scenes to ensure one's partner achieves their goal (which I thought you might have been implying) is the right kind of complement for a particular person. I just don't think it's the right kind of complement for Shizune.
I think Shizune needs someone who can push her and she can push back.
She needs someone to bounce off of. They help each other up and up until they both are doing their best.
Pretty much true, but I'd like to add a few things to it.

Shizune is someone who--from what I can see--tries to bring the best out of everyone that she works with (e.g. Misha and Hisao), although her attempts to do so often drove most people away. She may be the leader-type (and Hisao the follower), but overall she wants to work with someone of equal standing. Why? Because just like you said, she needs someone who can bounce her back (those who can were Misha and Hisao, respectively--Lilly is as capable, but it evolves into something more of rivalries. It's like putting two honebadgers in one cage)

So back to Hisao 'chasing after' Shizune is--to my interpretation--what Shizune wanted all along in a partner. Someone who she can 'bounce' with.

...Baymax much?
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
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BMFJack
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:03 am

brythain wrote:Try this experiment: is it possible to explain away all the other girls that way? I bet you could do it if you tried. :D
Nope! Cuz they are very open with how they feel and why they do what they do. So much so that it's obvious.

Keep in mind that that's a general statement, and that I know there are times when each girl hides things from you.

But also, it's not just finding any ol excuse, it's the way I've felt about Shizune's route since I played it.

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:43 am

BMFJack wrote: This doesn't show any particular caring; she's the Student Council president and it's very common in Japan for students to care for each other on this level purely out of obligation.
Not true.
As someone who's raised and familiar with the customs and culture here, I'll ask you: have you ever been a part of a Student Council? How about school life in Japan? What you see or 'learn' from anime or anything related is different from reality.

It's a lot more stressful. Student Council members in particular pretty much 'gave up' their youth and work alongside the teachers as a functioning student body most of the time--sometimes it includes doing morning rounds and doing uniform checks, which means going to school earlier than most students and being an asshat to the rest for being tardy (I'm not fond of morning rounds; not a morning person).
Next, we often like to more or less 'keep to ourselves' unless we're told to 'show the school around' to new or transfer students. Don't get me started on school bullying either, those tend to get out of hand especially in elementary.
I'm pretty sure Shizune would be happy if anyone joined the Student Council. It's been just her an Misha all that time, and IIRC Shizune only keeps Misha around because she doesn't want to be lonely.
Except there's no one else who's even remotely capable on staying in the student council. Like I said before, Student Council life has a lot of merits, but it means you don't get to party on weekends or join other clubs after school. It's almost like a 'career' option or part-work. Everyone who she bounced on ran--except Misha, and she stook around for an entirely different reason BUT--unlike the rest--she bounces back. Then Hisao came along and he bounces back too--the first male student to have bounce back to her.
Her own father refuses to learn sign language, so the fact that anyone learned it for her sake would be impressive.[/i]
That would be true, but problem is--is there anyone one else? Let's put it this way: would you, who just recently joined say a small firm run by a deaf-mute be bothered to learn sign language when you have the convenience of the translator to tell the boss what you're saying? She's impressed, in fact, when Hideaki wants to learn sign language.
I'm not even sure what you're getting at here, except maybe the lunch, which I think she only did because it's what she thought she should do as his girlfriend.
Where should I start with this...

Do you know how much time it takes to prepare lunch? Did you forget that she's a member of the Student Council? Getting a lunch handmade by a girl here means a lot--it isn't just about the taste, but the presentation as well. Packet-made goods are often an insult, thus most are commonly handmade. Not to forget, she's the Student Council president which means:
1. She has to wake up really early to prepare lunch (Cooking, preparation, etc.)
2. Then be the first at school before anyone else for uniform checks
That's a lot of time and dedication poured into a tight schedule; I doubt it's a common practice outside, but who am I to judge
That's kind of the thing... women don't chase men, especially in Japan, so while Hisao was indeed the one that took all the steps pre-relationship, it was Shizune that gave him the strong signals that enabled him to feel comfortable doing so. Of course she's surprised; normally her attempts at friendship run people off. Luckily for her, Hisao is pretty much a blank slate.
You've never been called to the back of the school or the roof or somewhere for a confession, huh?
I'm not even sure where you get the idea where women don't chase men--they do, and sometimes can be a bit more aggressive than what you thought.
Shizune's interest on Hisao grew from initial curiosity to 'NOTICE ME YOU THICKHEADED DOOFUS'--the lunch she made is probably the loudest she can muster, then her invitation to the festival. Hisao probably got the hint after those that she shares the same interest as him.
Not concerned about control over the relationship, only about Shizune's emotional involvement. Even given that though, Shizune does have the vast majority of the control in their relationship, and still manages to fail to convey that she cares on anything more than a friendship-level. Wooing someone doesn't automatically indicate caring... though I'm sure it's less common in Japan and even less common among Japanese teenagers, people do fake relationships. And Shizune sure is lonely. Coupled with her father issues, I'd say it's more a psychological need for male attention that convinced her to try to make Hisao her boyfriend than any kind of attraction or caring.
I'm starting to believe you're going through cognitive disonance and just there to deny/ignore the facts that were presented.
1. She's a member of the Student Council (I can't stress this enough), which equals she doesn't even have time for anything outside of council work
2. The lunch. Handmade.
3. Meeting the parents. If you're unfamiliar with this concept, there's a thread that overviews this
4. Rooftop date (if I'm in her shoes, I wouldn't even consider it considering how much time wasted. Even then, she still tries to set-aside some time for Misha. I don't know how she can survive without bags under her eyes)
I also think Misha is simply jealous that Shizune finally has someone to pay attention to besides Misha.
[/quote]
More like she finally realize that her love will never be requitted and that she has to move on. Misha confessed to Shizune once, rejected, but stuck around because she still believe spending time with her is still worth it.

Enter Hisao.
BMFJack wrote:
brythain wrote:Try this experiment: is it possible to explain away all the other girls that way? I bet you could do it if you tried. :D
Nope! Cuz they are very open with how they feel and why they do what they do. So much so that it's obvious.

Keep in mind that that's a general statement, and that I know there are times when each girl hides things from you.

But also, it's not just finding any ol excuse, it's the way I've felt about Shizune's route since I played it.
Oh yeah, Rin is also very open.

You forgot something:
Shizune can't talk

It is much easier to understand someone who can speak your language than those who doesn't--which is what Shizune is, basically: a Japanese living as a foreigner amongst Japanese.

Remember Kenji's scene? i'm starting to see the 'meaning' in what he's trying to say with his shaman eyes argument. He has 'seen where no man has seen' or something like that--this can hint to Shizune herself and a big hint to Hisao concerning her:

To see more than what was perceived the first time. To go deeper.
Image
They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:31 pm

I honestly think you've thought entirely too deeply about this. The devs didn't intent to simulate a perfectly realistic Japanese environment when they created Katawa Shoujo, they've said as much.
Megumeru wrote:Misha confessed to Shizune once, rejected, but stuck around because she still believe spending time with her is still worth it.
Did you forget that Misha wanted to stop hanging out with Shizune, and that Shizune stopped her from doing so?

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:32 pm

BMFJack wrote:I honestly think you've thought entirely too deeply about this. The devs didn't intent to simulate a perfectly realistic Japanese environment when they created Katawa Shoujo, they've said as much.
Megumeru wrote:Misha confessed to Shizune once, rejected, but stuck around because she still believe spending time with her is still worth it.
Did you forget that Misha wanted to stop hanging out with Shizune, and that Shizune stopped her from doing so?
Now you're overthinking it too much too... :D
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:42 pm

brythain wrote:Now you're overthinking it too much too... :D
Er... What?

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:43 pm

BMFJack wrote:I honestly think you've thought entirely too deeply about this. The devs didn't intent to simulate a perfectly realistic Japanese environment when they created Katawa Shoujo, they've said as much.
KS settings takes place nonetheless in a background I grew up with, so of course I'll reference my own personal experience and knowledge with it most of the time--which is also the reason why I have a tendency to call 'bull' on a particular scene on a particular route.
BMFJack wrote:Did you forget that Misha wanted to stop hanging out with Shizune, and that Shizune stopped her from doing so?
Indeed she did. Again, it is up to Misha to 'take the boot' when Shizune stopped her (ignore and move along)--she didn't. I think it may be because Misha still believed that she has that small chance with Shizune, or she's content to have the pleasure to hog all of Shizune's attention (until Hisao steps in)
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Charmant » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:09 pm

minimike96 wrote:
Charmant wrote:
minimike96 wrote:The good one just has them all be happy, we see nothing about Hisao & Shizune themselves. And the bad one... they just stop being together because Misha is a lesbian?
I...Don't think you understood the endings. The good one is all about Hisao and Shizune (well, and Misha), for one...

And no, the bad one is they stop being together because Hisao cheating on Shizune strains their various already-strained relationships to the point that they fall apart.
The good one really just felt like they were all happy. Sure they stay together and Misha is happy too. But it doesn't fell like Hisao and Shizune go anywhere.

The bad one: There didn't seem to be any straining. The only strain we see is in her bad ending path. Before that it's just their various issues. Maybe there is a ton of strain on them and I just missed it. It's been a while since I played Shizune's route. much less KS at all. I started another game but I got the lunchtime evolution theory place and stopped cause I wasn't sure what route I wanted to play.
The game begins with Hisao uprooted, mopey and sinking into a depression-fueled stagnation while Shizune and Misha are trapped in one of the world's least healthy relationships. It ends with Hisao possessing friends, a renewed sense of belonging, and a restored ambition while Shizune and Misha's relationship is at least on a level where both can move forward with their lives.

"Their various issues"...Yeah, exactly. Like Misha harboring a one-sided love and clinging to Shizune over the years despite the one-sidedness, only growing more inwardly depressed and clingy over time and forcibly masking it 24/7 which adds a further strain upon her personally. Shizune taking advantage (knowingly or otherwise) by having Misha basically serve as her obedient shadow, an arrangement that simultaneously feeds into and enables Misha's ongoing fixation while Misha's serving as her yes man enables Shizune to continue being oblivious to her very real faults. Hisao's arrival at all creates an extra strain among all of this, and his dishonesty/cheating creates enough to finally break things apart.

These things are what would be called "strain".

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:24 am

Megumeru wrote:it is up to Misha to 'take the boot' when Shizune stopped her (ignore and move along)--she didn't.
Having been in Misha's situation myself, I can tell you that it wasn't exactly her decision. She tried to move on and Shizune stopped her, creating a poisonous relationship for the both of them.

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:18 am

BMFJack wrote:
Megumeru wrote:it is up to Misha to 'take the boot' when Shizune stopped her (ignore and move along)--she didn't.
Having been in Misha's situation myself, I can tell you that it wasn't exactly her decision. She tried to move on and Shizune stopped her, creating a poisonous relationship for the both of them.
I am quite sure that you may have been in a situation which has similarities to Misha's situation, but I do believe that Misha's situation as it is presented in the VN is open to multiple interpretations. One of those is that she saw Hisao as a successful challenger for Shizune's attention and/or time, and hence wanted to withdraw, but Shizune (who cared for her as a friend) didn't want her to take it that way. You can't privilege your personal experience exclusively when interpreting a text; sure, it is your right and in a real-life situation, you might even be right--but in a text-interpretation fictional situation, it's up for reasonable debate based on the text itself.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:37 am

Misha tried to leave Shizune alone before Hisao came along.
brythain wrote:You can't privilege your personal experience exclusively when interpreting a text
I should've said that to Megumeru =P

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:40 pm

BMFJack wrote: I should've said that to Megumeru =P
Problem is, the entire KS verse has my back. Here's why:
1. The KS setting takes place more or less in my own backyard. I grew up in that environment for the past 18 years, lived the culture that was presented (loathed it at some point, but grew to appreciate it after wising up).
2. Linking that to the first point, I was a member of the Student Council back in high school (secretary). Not a pretty life--although staying up late at night does prove to be a punishing 'benefit' later in university when a good night's sleep is quite a luxury

KS is written by foreigners, that I am familiar of--but what surprised me is how the writers managed to pull a very close depiction of Japan and its surrounding culture and its people (we have 'bubbles', as some of my friends describe. We may be hospital to visitors, but we have a tendency to keep to ourselves--just like how Hanako is when Hisao first interrupted her) while everything is woven into a good storyline--that is what impressed me the most (and what kept me around until the end). Although, this means I can easily nit-pick the bits and pieces that doesn't make sense almost instantly (one route is a serious offender of this)--at least from a cultural point of view.


now, Misha.
Yes, she did tried to leave Shizune alone. But Shizune, being the blockhead due to the lack of perception of her surroundings (for reasons I don't have to mention by now) doesn't catch on to Misha's attempt. She keeps coming back, thus Misha eventually stuck around. We see this happen in her route as well--Shizune's and Misha's relationship is basically gliding on thin ice, one tags along for reason that escapes the other, while the former made her own assumption and decisions from what she think is right. It's one of those problem involving the lack of communication that leads to massive misunderstanding, concluding with a nuclear fallout that obliterated an entire world and its inhabitants (Shizune bad-end, abridged).

Pretty fitting and tragic, don't you think?
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:28 am

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because we're not seeing eye-to-eye at all.

I'm interested in which route you've mentioned has serious problems though... send me a PM with details =D

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