The problem with Shizune

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kimono
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by kimono » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:39 pm

minimike96 wrote:
kimono wrote: P.D. It doesn't help that her route is (in my opinion) the worst of the game.
P.P.D. Well... spoilers! Everyone started to spoil her route since the first post so I guess brackets are not needed.
To each their own.
And I think it's assumed that if you're coming here you've probably played the game at least once. So the spoilers aren't horrific.
Yes, of course, I was just joking about that, and because in some posts there aren't spoiler tags but in others everyone uses it.
But well, as you said I guess that most people posting here have had played the game. And besides, a post about shizune will obviously have spoilers of her route...
Routes: Lily>Rin>Hanako>Emi>Shizune

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Charmant
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Charmant » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:19 pm

minimike96 wrote:The good one just has them all be happy, we see nothing about Hisao & Shizune themselves. And the bad one... they just stop being together because Misha is a lesbian?
I...Don't think you understood the endings. The good one is all about Hisao and Shizune (well, and Misha), for one...

And no, the bad one is they stop being together because Hisao cheating on Shizune strains their various already-strained relationships to the point that they fall apart.

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Megumeru
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:09 am

Shizune is never an easy character to read into and is often a challenge for the majority to get through--which I believe is intended, as it is in-line with her in-verse character. Her disability is one aspect that contributes to her reasoning (she is in a sense, 'living in an entirely different world'.
Her route--intentionally or not--contains the most subtle feels that may feel alien to most who are unfamilliar with the customs and hints that were presented. Further, you really have to read what's happening in the background and around the character and Shizune herself to capture the most out of it--recently something tells me that Kenji's 'Shaman eyes' may hold more than just your comic relief scene.

He's telling something related to the story; question is, what is it?

anyway, her route--the ending in particular.

Remember how Shizune mentioned that she prefers 'action' rather than just words? Concerning Shizune, that statement of hers holds a much greater meaning than what it was because:
1. She can't speak or hear, thus in order to convey a message to her or from her, one has to use 'action'
2. That said, this makes 'words' to hold that of a greater weight as each one requires it to be fully thought-out
3. From the above, this made spoken words to be that of a greater value; what you said, you meant it for sure.

Throughout the route, Shizune conveys her affection towards Hisao by action--either she planned a date, take him to meet her parents, make Hisao's lunch, etc. Never even once we hear from Shizune or any of the casts (until the end) them spouting 'I love you' vocally or by sign language--for Shizune, if she wants to say that she'd act on it (i.e. giving herself).

'But what about the misplaced blurt hisao said at the end...'

Now, I'm not finished.
Like I said, words in Shizune's route holds a greater weight than contemporary as it needs to be fully thought out amd acted on. This made spoken words to hold double than what it originally is . You have to be 150% sure about what you're about to say and how serious it is, which in turn it gave a lot more perspective to Shizune's ending and possible hints on what will happen in their future:

1. Hisao starts her route by saying he has interest in her, albeit just a bit--in the end, he is fully committed to her.
2. Hisao will continue to 'chase' Shizune--what does this mean? This can be interpreted as him trying to reach her in a similar footing OR follow her on to the next chapter in their life which leads to...
3. Hisao and Shizune are going to attend the same university, together.

I may have read too deeply into this :lol:
But hey, it's a nice change if pace from the usual papers I have to work on :lol:
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
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Liminaut
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Liminaut » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:20 am

I find Hisao's statement that he will continue to chase Shizune incredibly poignant. Always chasing implies never catching up to.

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Megumeru
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Megumeru » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:04 am

Liminaut wrote:I find Hisao's statement that he will continue to chase Shizune incredibly poignant. Always chasing implies never catching up to.
If the context when he said the statement is before he and Shizune became a couple, then yes, that may be true.

But thing is, with the ending we have both of them graduating and starting a new chapter (basically same starting position), while Shizune is still Hisao's girlfriend. Now, 'never catching up' doesn't make sense in here since basically he already caught up to her and instead, his statement would I believe better translate to 'I will keep up with her'
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They say they hate Shizune? What is this? BLASPHEMY!

SHII-HAEL!
Shizune>Rin>Emi>Hanako>Lilly
"A writer is a light that reveals the world of his story from darkness. Shapes it from nothingness. If the writer stops, the world dies with it." - Alan Wake
Yes, I write stories. Currently working on: The Haunting: A Love Story

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dewelar
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by dewelar » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:09 am

Megumeru wrote:
Liminaut wrote:I find Hisao's statement that he will continue to chase Shizune incredibly poignant. Always chasing implies never catching up to.
If the context when he said the statement is before he and Shizune became a couple, then yes, that may be true.

But thing is, with the ending we have both of them graduating and starting a new chapter (basically same starting position), while Shizune is still Hisao's girlfriend. Now, 'never catching up' doesn't make sense in here since basically he already caught up to her and instead, his statement would I believe better translate to 'I will keep up with her'
Or there's the way I sometimes think about it: while they may be boyfriend and girlfriend, Hisao likely still sees Shizune as being ahead of him in some other way(s) -- achievement, life experience, level of ambition, intelligence, whatever -- so having her in his life gives him something for which he can strive in that way. One of those "I need to make myself better to be worthy of her" kind of things.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by YZQ » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:12 am

Let's see: Compared to Hisao, Shizune

1) comes from a richer family
2) definitely shows more steel (e.g. standing up to her father). In fact, the issue of "too much steel and not enough silk" does show up in her route.
3) has better grades.

Really, once she can tame her stubbornness, she is meant for great things. I know that I wouldn't want her to be my direct boss. My emails will give me nightmares.
"Nothing is beneath man. Everything is permitted."

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Charmant
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Charmant » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:49 pm

YZQ wrote:Let's see: Compared to Hisao, Shizune

1) comes from a richer family
2) definitely shows more steel (e.g. standing up to her father). In fact, the issue of "too much steel and not enough silk" does show up in her route.
3) has better grades.

Really, once she can tame her stubbornness, she is meant for great things. I know that I wouldn't want her to be my direct boss. My emails will give me nightmares.
I'm just imagining one of her employees gets fired and takes a shit on her desk...

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:16 pm

Charmant wrote:
minimike96 wrote:The good one just has them all be happy, we see nothing about Hisao & Shizune themselves. And the bad one... they just stop being together because Misha is a lesbian?
I...Don't think you understood the endings. The good one is all about Hisao and Shizune (well, and Misha), for one...

And no, the bad one is they stop being together because Hisao cheating on Shizune strains their various already-strained relationships to the point that they fall apart.
The good one really just felt like they were all happy. Sure they stay together and Misha is happy too. But it doesn't fell like Hisao and Shizune go anywhere.

The bad one: There didn't seem to be any straining. The only strain we see is in her bad ending path. Before that it's just their various issues. Maybe there is a ton of strain on them and I just missed it. It's been a while since I player Shizunes route. much less KS at all. I started another game but I got the lunchtime evolution theory place and stopped cause I wasn't sure what route I wanted to play.
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Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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AussieInquisitor
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by AussieInquisitor » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:43 pm

Well, in my case, it's not necessarily that I hate her or anything that extreme. I think it's just that some of the characters will click with certain people, while others won't (looking at you, Kenji!) for varying reasons.

Remember: doesn't click =/= doesn't like.

As for Shizune in particular, I think it was simply down to a somewhat bad impression the first go around, as most fo the girls who would eventually not be the focus of an individual's route tend to be shuffled to one side - a lot of their details and nuances would thus be lost in the background. Once I got onto Shizune's route, however, I found myself going, "Ah, NOW I understand."
Tha gaol agam ort, Lilly. Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic.

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Liminaut
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Liminaut » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:26 am

dewelar wrote:
Megumeru wrote:
Liminaut wrote:I find Hisao's statement that he will continue to chase Shizune incredibly poignant. Always chasing implies never catching up to.
If the context when he said the statement is before he and Shizune became a couple, then yes, that may be true.

But thing is, with the ending we have both of them graduating and starting a new chapter (basically same starting position), while Shizune is still Hisao's girlfriend. Now, 'never catching up' doesn't make sense in here since basically he already caught up to her and instead, his statement would I believe better translate to 'I will keep up with her'
Or there's the way I sometimes think about it: while they may be boyfriend and girlfriend, Hisao likely still sees Shizune as being ahead of him in some other way(s) -- achievement, life experience, level of ambition, intelligence, whatever -- so having her in his life gives him something for which he can strive in that way. One of those "I need to make myself better to be worthy of her" kind of things.
This is something like what I was thinking. Shizune will always be the leader and Hisao chasing after, which means Hisao will never really be her equal. As Socrates said, true love can only happen between equals.

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brythain
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:56 am

Liminaut wrote:This is something like what I was thinking. Shizune will always be the leader and Hisao chasing after, which means Hisao will never really be her equal. As Socrates said, true love can only happen between equals.
I don't think that's the case. The route shows that Shizune only discovers her deficiencies because her friends keep her grounded. They aren't equals, they're complementary. Socrates' rather platonic formulation of love led him to believe that equality meant identicality; in real life, that is neither true nor desirable. When Hisao learns that he doesn't have to chase after her success, but that (in a very ironically atypical way to a Japanese) he's the one who will get her to be her best, they'll do well. :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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dewelar
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by dewelar » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:14 am

brythain wrote:
Liminaut wrote:This is something like what I was thinking. Shizune will always be the leader and Hisao chasing after, which means Hisao will never really be her equal. As Socrates said, true love can only happen between equals.
I don't think that's the case. The route shows that Shizune only discovers her deficiencies because her friends keep her grounded. They aren't equals, they're complementary. Socrates' rather platonic formulation of love led him to believe that equality meant identicality; in real life, that is neither true nor desirable. When Hisao learns that he doesn't have to chase after her success, but that (in a very ironically atypical way to a Japanese) he's the one who will get her to be her best, they'll do well. :)
It's a bit of both, really. While I agree that being complementary is the ideal, for these two it should be a complementarity that eventually at least approaches an equilibrium. Basically, the best case scenario is that Hisao will "chase" Shizune in some ways, while Shizune will "chase" Hisao in others, in order to get each other to be their best.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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brythain
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:33 am

dewelar wrote:
brythain wrote:When Hisao learns that he doesn't have to chase after her success, but that (in a very ironically atypical way to a Japanese) he's the one who will get her to be her best, they'll do well. :)
It's a bit of both, really. While I agree that being complementary is the ideal, for these two it should be a complementarity that eventually at least approaches an equilibrium. Basically, the best case scenario is that Hisao will "chase" Shizune in some ways, while Shizune will "chase" Hisao in others, in order to get each other to be their best.
Ah, yes, I agree with that. Perhaps the way I put it seemed a little one-sided.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Oscar Wildecat » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:30 am

I always envisioned Shizune and Hisao ending up a bit like Madoka Kaname's parents. That is to say, a strong-willed business mother and a kindhearted stay-at-home (?) father. Of course, their kids will all have caught tilde~itis, the love of tea, and a particular fondness for chess from their "aunts". :wink:
I like all the girls in KS, but empathize with Hanako the most.
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