The problem with Shizune

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minimike96
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The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:44 pm

I see a lot of hate for Shizune, and I was wondering if anyone wanted to share their reasons.

Personally I love Shizune, to the point of her being my favorite Girl. Her route on the other hand.......
It felt like she got the short end of the stick when it came to anything. Only 1 choice in her route (And it decided then ending), Endings most people agree were lackluster (The good one just has them all be happy, we see nothing about Hisao & Shizune themselves. And the bad one... they just stop being together because Misha is a lesbian?), and a very odd story line elsewhere (All their sex scenes felt kinda random and weird, and I'm saying that about a game where you date and have sex with cripples).

I can't fully explain WHY I like Shizune the best, I kinda just DO. Anyway, what're other people's opinions on her.
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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AaronIsCrunchy
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by AaronIsCrunchy » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:48 pm

Shizune has grown on me a lot. If megameru finds this thread I'm sure you'll get a much better reasoning for why her route is so good, but I like it simply because it's very well written, and I like the slight psychoanalysis element. Also, apparently it's far and away the best route for picking up on Japanese custom, even if you may not realise it.

That said, her video is far and away the saddest, and Misha's part in the story breaks me every time.
Because green eyes are best eyes.
http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=9511 - A thread of my drawings. Don't expect a lot.


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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:52 pm

AaronIsCrunchy wrote:Shizune has grown on me a lot. If megameru finds this thread I'm sure you'll get a much better reasoning for why her route is so good, but I like it simply because it's very well written, and I like the slight psychoanalysis element. Also, apparently it's far and away the best route for picking up on Japanese custom, even if you may not realise it.

That said, her video is far and away the saddest, and Misha's part in the story breaks me every time.
Oh I love her story, I love the way it's written and I love the Misha story (Like, the way you love something that's sad, I don't get a kick out of her depression).
I just see so much hate for her and never could fully understand why.

Though I did miss the parts about picking up on actual culture and the psychoanalysis, those are new to me.
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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AaronIsCrunchy
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by AaronIsCrunchy » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:56 pm

minimike96 wrote: (Like, the way you love something that's sad, I don't get a kick out of her depression).
Wow, I must have sounded a complete arsehole :( I don't get a kick out of it either, and I shouldn't have put it the way I did! I guess having been in a fairly similar situation to hers at one point strikes a chord with me, I dunno.

Yeah, they're worth trying to pick up on. One example I can think of is the making of the bento boxes - these take time and effort, and to make one for somebody is apparently consider a good gesture. (I think that's what I heard anyway!)

I've probably got the above wrong to be honest, but I'm sure someone will point out my mistakes :lol:
Because green eyes are best eyes.
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Munchenhausen
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Munchenhausen » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:09 pm

I think most people dislike her because of her route. It's if and when they re-read it, that they realise how much she is bestgirl. Either that, or they just gradually overlook her route and focus more on the character that is Shizune.
I did the latter. I haven't re-read KS at all, honestly. I can't be arsed.

But I like Shizune because she seems to like to challenge herself and to make games out of everything, which is something I do a lot. Plus I find sign language awesome.
Like stupid, silly doodles with no point? You've come to the right place, friend :^)
I also occasionally write oneshots. Why not have a skimread?
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BMFJack
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by BMFJack » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:12 pm

I think the reason why I dislike Shizune so much is because of how she treats Hisao. For their first time she just kind of... ties him down and does it to him, disregarding his wishes on the matter. Throughout her route, she never really treats him like her boyfriend. The whole time I just got the feeling that they were friends with benefits, or that Hisao loved her and Shizune just kind of "went with it"

Then there's the omega disappointments of the endings. Good end - you don't even know if they stay together. It's pretty unclear, making it more of a neutral ending than anything. Then in the "bad" end, she just breaks up with you without telling you a real reason why.

It's proven that Shizune's route lasts the longest timeline-wise, yet it has always felt to me like Shizune and Hisao has the least amount of connection to each other.

I've never played Shizune's route all the way through more than once, and honestly I had never planned on it, but because all the Shizune fanboys keep saying "OMGZ YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT THREE TIMES BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND" I might play it again one day, but I don't expect my opinion to change at all; I have an incredible amount of attention to detail.

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brythain
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:14 pm

I love Shizune. And her seemingly random H-scenes are her attempt to break the barrier between herself and someone else, without the use of hearing or speech, and without losing control. If she is successful, it is the way to a better Shizune; if she is not, it is sad all round, with the sense of what-might-have-been rather than the sense of there-is-everything-left-to-play-for that you get in the good ending.

Megumeru's various dissertations on Shizune are all over the place, but [here's the big one]. Enjoy!

Edit: Actually, I think I know why Shizune is least-liked, statistically. It's because players are mostly self-centred (logically, not as a term of opprobrium) when they play a game. Shizune's route forces you to be at times something like the side character, the protagonist's friend rather than the protagonist. This isn't the way most people want to 'play' a game. But many VNs go that way; the meaningful choices in a VN like Fate/Stay Night are about as sparse as those in Shizune's route.
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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Atario
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by Atario » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:34 pm

BMFJack wrote:she just kind of... ties him down and does it to him, disregarding his wishes on the matter
You say that like he didn't wish for it…
NB: none of the above is a request

Mutou Gets Fired — a little one-shot fanfic I wrote

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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by dewelar » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:09 am

I've gone back and forth on my opinion of Shizune's route several times, and I have decided that it's impossible to tell whether A22 did some of the things he did with the route intentionally or because he was too lazy to finish some stuff and just did a good job of convincing people that it was art. Yeah, he got some good Japanese cultural stuff in there, but a fair amount of it is fairly easily cribbed from other VNs or from basic research on the Internet, which any author who cares about their story should be doing anyway. The fact that other writers' stories suffer because they don't do that is really on them.

But...I don't really care anymore. I've created my own headcanon that has allowed me to come to terms with what I consider to be the route's flaws, and to appreciate the character of Shizune and her own flaws. On the other hand, I also completely understand those that look at it and say "feh, what was that all about, anyway?" because if I hadn't been motivated to write a story that required me to create that headcanon, I might have felt the same. It's still the route in the game I enjoy the least, but I don't dislike it, nor do I dislike Shizune.

One thing I will say, though, is that if I'm ever feeling sorry for myself, I would be very grateful to have a Shizune in my life to kick my arse and get me up and moving again.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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brythain
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by brythain » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:10 am

dewelar wrote:One thing I will say, though, is that if I'm ever feeling sorry for myself, I would be very grateful to have a Shizune in my life to kick my arse and get me up and moving again.
This, my real life story. :)
Post-Yamaku, what happens? After The Dream is a mosaic that follows everyone to the (sometimes) bitter end.
Main Index (Complete)Shizune/Lilly/Emi/Hanako/Rin/Misha + Miki + Natsume
Secondary Arcs: Rika/Mutou/AkiraHideaki | Others (WIP): Straw—A Dream of SuzuSakura—The Kenji Saga.
"Much has been lost, and there is much left to lose." — Tim Powers, The Drawing of the Dark (1979)

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:45 am

brythain wrote:I love Shizune. And her seemingly random H-scenes are her attempt to break the barrier between herself and someone else.
These always felt off. If the point was to show that she was trying to break the barrier I feel that they failed.
brythain wrote: Edit: Actually, I think I know why Shizune is least-liked, statistically. It's because players are mostly self-centred (logically, not as a term of opprobrium) when they play a game. Shizune's route forces you to be at times something like the side character, the protagonist's friend rather than the protagonist. This isn't the way most people want to 'play' a game. But many VNs go that way; the meaningful choices in a VN like Fate/Stay Night are about as sparse as those in Shizune's route.
That's an interesting theory. I would even call it brilliant. I've dabbled in psychology (If you call reading Wikipedia for 5 hours Dabbling :p) and that seems very likely.

dewelar wrote:I've gone back and forth on my opinion of Shizune's route several times, and I have decided that it's impossible to tell whether A22 did some of the things he did with the route intentionally or because he was too lazy to finish some stuff and just did a good job of convincing people that it was art. Yeah, he got some good Japanese cultural stuff in there, but a fair amount of it is fairly easily cribbed from other VNs or from basic research on the Internet, which any author who cares about their story should be doing anyway. The fact that other writers' stories suffer because they don't do that is really on them.

But...I don't really care anymore. I've created my own headcanon that has allowed me to come to terms with what I consider to be the route's flaws, and to appreciate the character of Shizune and her own flaws. On the other hand, I also completely understand those that look at it and say "feh, what was that all about, anyway?" because if I hadn't been motivated to write a story that required me to create that headcanon, I might have felt the same. It's still the route in the game I enjoy the least, but I don't dislike it, nor do I dislike Shizune.
Oh how I wish i could write like some of these fan-fic writers. Anyway, back on topic:
Her route is still my 2nd least favorite (Lily is last for me, for reasons) due to its lackluster endings and overall feel. Don't remember who (I'm gonna shoot myself if it's someone I'm quoting right now) said it but it feels like Shizune is just kinda there. Hisao loves her and she just is. The good ending doesn't even have her say I love you or anything. And then her bad ending everything just ends.
dewelar wrote: One thing I will say, though, is that if I'm ever feeling sorry for myself, I would be very grateful to have a Shizune in my life to kick my arse and get me up and moving again.
I think we all would be.
Don't remember where I got but This is a great picture.
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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dewelar
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by dewelar » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:41 am

minimike96 wrote:Oh how I wish i could write like some of these fan-fic writers.
Heh...that's exactly how I thought when I first came to the boards here. My first effort fell pretty flat, but people kinda like my second one. You never know what you can or can't do until you try.
Anyway, back on topic:
Her route is still my 2nd least favorite (Lily is last for me, for reasons) due to its lackluster endings and overall feel. Don't remember who (I'm gonna shoot myself if it's someone I'm quoting right now) said it but it feels like Shizune is just kinda there. Hisao loves her and she just is. The good ending doesn't even have her say I love you or anything. And then her bad ending everything just ends.
Heh...Lilly's is definitely the weakest route for me (which is actually one of the main reasons I based Developments off of it), but I still enjoy it more than Shizune's. As far as saying "I love you" goes...it makes one wonder what she would have said if he'd ever signed it to her instead of still being a bit of a coward at the end.
Don't remember where I got but This is a great picture.
That it is.
Rin is orthogonal to everything.
Stuff I've written: Developments, a continuation of Lilly's (bad? neutral?) ending - COMPLETE!

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AaronIsCrunchy
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by AaronIsCrunchy » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:42 am

minimike96 wrote: Don't remember where I got but This is a great picture.
Bloody hell, that's fantastic. I can't deny the positive effect on my life that playing KS has had (something I still can't quite believe when I think about), and I do like to think of KS as a self-improvement tool as much as a good story. Don't get me wrong, I'm not modelling myself on Hisao, but that picture there pretty much embodies the lessons that can be learned :)
Because green eyes are best eyes.
http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=9511 - A thread of my drawings. Don't expect a lot.


kimono
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by kimono » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:19 pm

Shizune is the typicall bossy girl, the cliched student council leader that orders to everyone and she's no fun to talk or do anything with her.
It doesn't help that all she does is basically bet with you in everything and doing secret test of characters in her conversations during act 1.

Of course, in her route it gets properly explained, but you have to get through it first. Also, it doesn't help (at least for me) that I can't really understand many of her reasoning. The problem with Shizune is that she treats everything as a challenge, like she says in her own route, even her conversations with friends. It's kind of odd for me, since this treat of personality is not provoked by her deaf-muteness, and it's I always found hard to "belive" it. I felt like these characterstic was put just to justify Shizune's behaviour and the structure of her route (which also jumps to one scene to another) rather than being a part of her personality. It's the opposite it happens with Rin: She can't express herself by words, something it's pretty obvious the moment she starts talking, and that effects her own route.

That means that, even if you go to her route, you don't get a satisfactory explanation of her acts, at least in my case. Hell, you have a better explanation of Misha's behavior, and she doesn't have a route :lol: :lol:

I don't know if I explained well enough :D

P.D. It doesn't help that her route is (in my opinion) the worst of the game.
P.P.D. Well... spoilers! Everyone started to spoil her route since the first post so I guess brackets are not needed.
Routes: Lily>Rin>Hanako>Emi>Shizune

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minimike96
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Re: The problem with Shizune

Post by minimike96 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:22 pm

kimono wrote: P.D. It doesn't help that her route is (in my opinion) the worst of the game.
P.P.D. Well... spoilers! Everyone started to spoil her route since the first post so I guess brackets are not needed.
To each their own.
And I think it's assumed that if you're coming here you've probably played the game at least once. So the spoilers aren't horrific.
That one guy who likes Shizune more than the others.
Shizune>>Emi≥Rin≥Misha>Hanako>Lily

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