Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

[YZQ]

On Lily's looks, just look at the kids of mixed marriages between Caucasians and Asians.

On Japanese and exams, when GP said was head-on. But, an elder statesman from my country had this to say:

"If I were a young Japanese and I could speak English, I would probably choose to emigrate.”

Not hard to see why.

[Xanatos]

So, if a six year old is totally flawed and doesn't want to talk to his parent for 12 years old, i wouldn't even consider blaming the child.

So children are magically free from all blame because they're children. Got it. Great.

You'd be one of those annoying parents with an unrestrained brat who annoys all the neighbors, wouldn't you?

[Archimedes]

Who's worse here, you assume he doesn't or me assuming he does? :p

What if the author actually intended that Hisao doesn't think about it, or he didn't thought about it himself? Otherwise it's a bad style of the author.

Again, i prefer to judge what's there instead of judging the story i made up myself.

With Shizune, who is absolutely focused on being the best she can be? Who has all these emotions roiling around inside her after everything that happens?

I've heard that exams in Japan were harder, but i haven't known that they were that hard.

It sounded more like she was actively avoiding hisao and misha instead of being busy, as she was doing all student council stuff alone. (Beside, misha asks Hisao in the Shanghai if he thinks that Shizune actively avoid them, because she thinks so for herself).

But it sounds plausible.

So children are magically free from all blame because they're children. Got it. Great.

We're not talking about a week she denied to talk to her father. we are talking about 12 years.

Are you a troll or do you really can't get that?

You'd be one of those annoying parents with an unrestrained brat who annoys all the neighbors, wouldn't you?

That's a more then pathetic try to get personal instead of arguing. It seems that you can't handle to argue. Would it even make sense to quote modern psychology, laws, studies etc. if all you would (and possibly could) answer were two sentences, not a single argument but instead becoming personal (on a theoretical level)? Every word written would be wasted.

I never said that a child should be free to do what ever he/she wants (if that's what you somehow understood), but if Jigoro doesn't talk to his daughter for 12 years, it's likely his fault, face it.

Maybe the mother played a role, if you would argue that way i could at least take you serious. But you don't, and 12 years are a loooong time to overcome something.

If you are that ignorant, i honestly hope that you will never have children. It's usually people like you that have such brats. I speak from experience.

Here's a little exercise I'd like you to try: Abandon your one-sided Jigoro-hating bias and then come back. You'll notice Jigoro isn't the devil and Shizune is pretty flawed herself.

I admit that i have a bias against Jigoro, as i said i initially didn't liked him. But if you are so biased that you blame his 6 year old daughter for excluding her father for the rest of her life, take a look at your own bias and ignorance.

Do we not remember Lilly is only Half-Scottish?

On Lily's looks, just look at the kids of mixed marriages between Caucasians and Asians.

Haven't thought about that.

In an attempt to prove a point, I did a quick search for "muscle man in Hawaiian shirt."

I stopped looking after it gave me this.

Misses the beard and handful of styling gel, but ok i can see it . That facial expressions seems fitting.

And Hisao gives him more credit than you do. Hisao considers three possibilities - he's a health nut; he's a bad cook; he's an asshole. You can't cite the eggshells as proof of his assholishness to interpret later actions as assholish and then return to the omelette and argue that he must be an asshole because of everything else he does. That's textbook circular reasoning. So, for the sake of this thought exercise, let's give him the benefit of the three possibilities Hisao considers.

You are right.

You really can't see it? If the internet hasn't polluted you to the point where you can see that sentence, actively look for innuendo, and come up empty means that you're a better person than I. So as to not be crass, let's just say that it sounds like he's describing the mechanics of a "comfortable" arrangement.

Maybe it's because i'm not a native english speaker and the innuendo gets lost when i translate it in my mind.

The only innuendo i can think of would be groupsex or circle jerking, but both seem farfetched for me. Also, that's something all six of them could do at the same time...?

There's a certain type of "coarse exterior, soft interior" individual where they voice their minor annoyances as more significant than they are. He outright says that he's glad they enjoyed using his equipment, but their treatment makes it clear that they had no idea what they were doing. So, to emphasise their ignorance, he paints a picture of them using the rods in a comically improper manner.

Possibly. I guess the meaning changes in the matter how you imagine him saying that sentence.

I were quite sure that he was sarcastic when he said that he's glad that the group enjoyed using his equipement. Are you sure that he wasn't sarcastic?

He accuses Hisao of huffing glue.

His response is very polite and soothing.

“He's right. It's slander. Are you a lawyer?”

Oh so very polite.

That was afterwards. If Person A insults Person B multiple times, and Person B answers snappy afterwards, why would you hint at person B and be like "oh look how rude he is!"?

And it is slander, isn't it?

And it's actually possible for Japanese people to have red hair (actually a bit darker than Rin's but still red).

Also: Anime/Manga/VNs often use Blue/Green/Purple as stylistic choices for Black. So it's likely that Jiggy, Shizune and Hideaki (and Hanako by extension) all have black hair. Technically Jigoro's hair going to green might be his hair is actually black, but graying.

Ah, first time i heard that. Ok, i can imagine him with black and grey hair.

[Guest Poster]

Lilly'd probably have dark hair too if KS took place in real life, but in a presentation using anime style blond hair is a much better way to emphasize her mixed blood than having to rely on the more subtle differences between pure-blood Japanese and mixed-blood Japanese.

So children are magically free from all blame because they're children. Got it. Great.

Uhhh...what? I assume you've heard the phrase "he's still a kid, he doesn't know better" before, right? 6-year old kids are generally in the phase of their life where a lot of their brain functions (like empathy and seeing the bigger picture) are still in development. That's why kids that age can get away with stuff like walking out of a toy store with a neat toy he didn't pay for or taking a pee in a public place and get only a stern talking to, rather than being fined or arrested. Even in less extreme scenarios, kids that age get away with saying stuff adults would get in trouble for. That doesn't absolve them of blame, but there's a reason kids are considered less accountable for their actions. They often are still in the process of learning how the world works.

So yes...if a 6-year old and a grown adult are into a prolonged conflict, we look at the adult to fix the situation and not at the kid.

[Steinherz]

With Shizune, who is absolutely focused on being the best she can be? Who has all these emotions roiling around inside her after everything that happens?

I've heard that exams in Japan were harder, but i haven't known that they were that hard.

It sounded more like she was actively avoiding hisao and misha instead of being busy, as she was doing all student council stuff alone. (Beside, misha asks Hisao in the Shanghai if he thinks that Shizune actively avoid them, because she thinks so for herself).

But it sounds plausible.

Japan has the highest suicide rate in the world among teenagers for a reason
They have ridiculously high standards. Say you didn't do above-average on your High School final exam. Your parents would likely be (extreme understatement) upset with you.

[Guest Poster]

I'm not even sure if it's just the parents' reactions that causes that students to either off themselves or become hikkikomoris...it's just one of the many factors. Imagine having to study 20-7 for months on end...get up, go to school, study all day, go to cram school after normal school, study some more, go home, study some more, sleep a few hours, repeat the whole thing...all while being under tremendous pressure from your folks to memorize more and more stuff. Then you don't make it into that one elite university, you shamed your family (a big deal in a shame culture) and best of all...you'll get to do it again next year. Take note that many students go through that twice. Once for the central exams in January and if they do well on those, they'll gain the right to go through the whole thing again in late Februari/early March since many universities have their own entrance exams on top of the central test. So yeah, it's pretty bad.

[Xanatos]

you blame his 6 year old daughter for excluding her father for the rest of her life

Who else would you blame for her excluding someone? It's her decision to do it. She chooses to prolong the conflict. You keep emphasizing that it goes on for TWELVE YEARS. Well, guess what? After twelve years, if you care to do the incredibly basic math involved, she's not six anymore so just what the hell is her excuse for not trying to work shit out rationally at that point? You said yourself "12 years are a loooong time to overcome something"...So why doesn't she? She has a problem with her dad, why doesn't she try to address it after twelve years instead of putting Misha (and later Hisao) between them? When does the "She's only six!" excuse cave in and responsibility for her own choices and relationships become relevant?

Yes, as horrifyingly controversial and shocking as it may be, I am blaming Shizune for Shizune's decisions because Shizune is the one who makes them and Shizune is subsequently responsible for them. Outrageous concept, personal accountability and all that, I'm sure...

And you might want to go learn what "troll" means before you start vomiting the term around in ignorance.

if Jigoro doesn't talk to his daughter for 12 years, it's likely his fault

No shit that's his fault. I never claimed it wasn't his fault. But we're not talking about Jigoro excluding Shizune, we're talking about Shizune excluding Jigoro. It takes two people to actively ignore each other for twelve years. Look, if you piss some guy off and he stops talking to you for a decade, it could be said that it's your fault for pissing him off...But at some point you'd have to stop and think "This guy is way too into grudges. What an asshole."

Either one could have tried to make things right. Neither one tries. Scratch that, Jigoro tries. He gets her tutors and everything. Yes, it's a selfishly misguided and unbelievably stupid attempt but it's more than she does. Jigoro physically can't communicate with her short of learning a whole new language. She can easily communicate with him as simple as picking up a notepad and refuses to do so. Yes, he's a selfish jerk who tried to teach her his language rather than learn hers because everything has to accommodate him, but he tried something.


I'm not sitting here claiming a six-year-old is at fault. I'm claiming that after twelve years of actively excluding her own father, maybe it's something wrong with her. Jigoro's a jerk who makes few if any attempts to have any decent relationship with his daughter and whose only attempt at communication was self-centered tripe...But Shizune's also a brat who makes few if any attempts to have any decent relationship with her father and actively refuses to communicate with him because she doesn't like pen and paper.


You say KS is a highly realistic story. Okay...

Your claim is basically "Jigoro's bad and it's all his fault!"

My claim is basically "They're both human and they both fucked up (and are still doing so) a whole lot."

Which of these is more realistic?

[Steinherz]

Xanatos, stop attempting to argue with him. You're pointlessly wasting energy.

This is also relevant:

"But Jigoro isn't supposed to know about the sex scene"
Remember, Shizune is DEAF. Volume control? What's that?

[Xanatos]

Xanatos, stop attempting to argue with him. You're pointlessly wasting energy.

This is also relevant:

"But Jigoro isn't supposed to know about the sex scene"
Remember, Shizune is DEAF. Volume control? What's that?

I don't spend much energy. There's plenty to waste.

And that's a good point...No volume control could get awkward...

[YZQ]

A deaf-mute girl moaning at the top of her voice during sex. I don't know if that's funny or puzzling.

[Xanatos]

A deaf-mute girl moaning at the top of her voice during sex. I don't know if that's funny or puzzling.

Well, if their moans are anything akin to their speaking voices...Funny. Mean but true. <.<

[Ritter Delorges]

Remember, Shizune is DEAF. Volume control? What's that?

True, but doesn't the VN say that at least when Hisao is around she only makes one noise ever? I know that would be very unusual in real life, but I read that as a sign of Shizune's extreme self-control.

[ProfAllister]

That's not what i meant. Browbeating his daughter surely isn't the only approach, and most likely not the best approach in that situation. How does this come at first (and solely) in your mind?

I must have misinterpreted your comment. I read it as "if he's so alpha, why can't he make his daughter talk to him?"

The answer is simple - Shizune has agency, and she makes her own decisions. Reconciliation may be possible, but only if she allows it. Someone determined to get her to communicate, even if only using "positive" methods still denies her agency, and thus her personhood. There is a reasonable level of effort that should be attempted, but there's a point where you just have to accept that it's her decision.

And this subject here has been the meat of much of the discussion. It is true that Jigoro is most likely more to blame. It is possible that he's entirely to blame. It could be entirely Shizune's fault. Most likely, they share in the blame. We don't have enough information to go beyond that. My argument, on this point and overall, is that there is a reasonable interpretation of events, filling in the blanks we don't know and can't know, in which Jigoro is not asshole incarnate. Ergo, this argument requires that a) Hisao conducted himself poorly, invoking Jigoro's ire; and b) Jigoro's poor relationship with Shizune isn't for want of trying (or due to unrelenting assholishness).

Then, what else to answer without being possibly rude or insulting?

Whether our not there is a right answer is irrelevant. The point is that Hisao's reply was wrong. But, since it wasn't really a question, out would be best to ignore it. If he keeps harping on it, challenging him on the facts would have more merit. It might not succeed, but it would be a better response.

Or could be misinterpreted as a yellow flag. Hisao's irregular sleeping isn't his fault. The VN states outright that the medication he takes messes with his sleeping patterns

By definition, a yellow flag can't be a misinterpretation. I may not have explained it clearly. It means "this is concerning, but there may be an explanation/justification, so I'll hold off on judgment for now. Unlike in sports, you can accumulate a large number of these and still be okay. If you're running around with a whole bunch, though, it becomes increasingly difficult to give the benefit of the doubt.

If my daughter refused to speak to me at all at age six and kept it up for twelve goddamn years, I'd probably wonder what the hell I'd done to fuck up myself in her eyes so badly she'll never talk to me, even by e-mail, text, or goddamn written letters. The fact that Jigoro didn't speaks volumes about him; he's certainly not in the running for Dad of the Year.

Funny how Jigoro can't read Hisao's mind, but you can read Jigoro's. Or do you normally talk about your darkest fears and concerns with rude and unmotivated punks that you're forced to interact with because they happen to be fucking that selfsame daughter?

(to be continued... When I have another free moment)

[Archimedes]

Xanatos, stop attempting to argue with him. You're pointlessly wasting energy.

And why do you think so? Just becasue you have another opinion?

So far i agreed multiple times with some of you or stated that it's at least plausible.



He's autobiography isn't even finished, it's impossible for hisao to read an book that's not even written yet!

It wasn't his idea to use the fishing equipment or car, his daughter and son should know if they are allowed to do so or not. Hisao doesn't even own a driving licence afaik.

It's said that Shizune makes barely any noise during sex. (i don't know how realistic that is, but it's what the author told us).

Why is it disrespectful to ask someone what his profession is? (again, wouldn't you ask someone always wearing a katana what his profession is?)

Shouting match? Everybody thinks that he is an asshole? He is.

Who else would you blame for her excluding someone? It's her decision to do it. She chooses to prolong the conflict. You keep emphasizing that it goes on for TWELVE YEARS. Well, guess what? After twelve years, if you care to do the incredibly basic math involved, she's not six anymore so just what the hell is her excuse for not trying to work shit out rationally at that point? You said yourself "12 years are a loooong time to overcome something"...So why doesn't she? She has a problem with her dad, why doesn't she try to address it after twelve years instead of putting Misha (and later Hisao) between them? When does the "She's only six!" excuse cave in and responsibility for her own choices and relationships become relevant?

We talk about a child. Childish attempts like giving her chocolate, making a sad face and saying something like "i'm so sad if you won't talk to me" or pulling a socket over your hand and say "if you don't talk to, will you at least talk with mister puppet"... such childish attempts work, because, well, we're talking about a child.

Ok, it would possibly be a bit harder to do because she's deaf, but far away from impossible.

What could a child possibly tempt to exclude her father for the rest of her life? It's very unbelievable that a six year child is so stubborn and consequent to do so for 12 years. If a six year old child decided to do so for even 1 year, that would be very heavy and dramatic, but possible if it has to do something with her mother. But it's the rest of her life she decided to do so.

Now, go ahead and tell me one possible scenario in which shizune is to blame.

One possibility, and in my opinion the most likely, is that Jigoro talks with his children like you would talk with adults. Thus he never was the father Shizune needed. If so, why should Shizune let a person in her life, who never was a father for her? She's done quite well and has only some flaws for someone who possibly neither had a mother nor father.

The other thing would be that Jigoro has done something very terrible. Even childs that get abused by their parents tend to love them and it may even look like they live a normal live on the first glance, so it would have to be something really dramatic. Maybe he killed her mother with the katana, cooked and served her afterwards, that would justify her actions and consequence.

And don't tell me that she is just unusual stubborn and consequent. When was the last time you talked with a six year old? Yes, they can decide for themselves, but they are very easy to manipulate and have a lower attention span then adults. So, i would go with my first theory, and in that case i would indeed call Jigoro "socially crippled".

Jigoro physically can't communicate with her short of learning a whole new language. She can easily communicate with him as simple as picking up a notepad and refuses to do so.

Yea, true. But what could lead her to that decision?

Don't forget, at a point were she probably had a hard time remembering the alphabet! Ok, she got older over time, but what could a 7 year old lead to that decision? a 8 year old? 9? 10?

And whatever it was, i can understand that once she was a teenger or young adult, that she said "I've done well without him, i don't need him, i never needed him".


Edit: I haven't read your new post yet, ProfAllister.

[Silentcook]

...Well, this escalated quickly.

Don't go Jigoro on each other, guys, or I might be tempted to go Paul Tibbets on you in return. Remember the fine practice of use-mention distinction, hmmm?