Finally giving KS a chance

[Xanatos]

Xanatos: I've almost finished Persona 4 Golden. Despite all the complaints I have had about the game, I've found its story fascinating and moving. And yes, I chose to name the main character Ramen Hentai. There have been games both old and new which I've liked while using joke names.

Dream: you said, "...you get an awesome [ending] if you can persevere on alienating all the girls around you." I've played some video games and VNs which have bad endings with story. I usually avoid getting negative endings unless they're thematically appropriate or story-relevant, but I might look into this.

That's a stupid name. And Persona 4 Golden shouldn't even exist, let alone be played.

And all the "negative" endings of KS (all 12 of them) are both thematically appropriate and story-relevant. Most endings to anything are, being...Well, part of the story and all. <.<;

The one Dream is referring to though is the standard "you didn't make enough choices to branch off onto any character's route" ending VNs tend to have. This one's fairly comedic (also incredibly dark).

[Dream]

Might be worth noting i was being somewhat sarcastic when i talked about the awesome ending, it is pretty interesting, but also extremely dark and might put you off from playing if you get it first, i would recommend you trying not to alienate the girls, at least not on the first run.

But when you get into a route proper, like Xanatos mentioned all the endings are very thematically appropiate and interesting in their own right. Hope you play a bit beyond Act 1 and let us know your opinion of the routes, since i think the routes are a whole different thing from Act 1.

[gekiganwing]

I've been inside for most of this afternoon/evening, slowly reading KS, and trying to decide if I like it. I'm still in the first section of the visual novel, and I think that I've finally progressed past the moment where I left off in 2009. Unfortunately, I'm still very negative and very uncertain. Three things first, even though none are all that relevant...

First, it surprises me to think that more than a handful of English speaking fans like any visual novel, romance game, or combination of the two. The few fans who read untranslated games look down on those who rely on translations. As I tried to say earlier, pretty much every anon, goon, and commenter considers VNs written in English to be cheap imitations made by untalented weeaboos. So yeah, I thought that most fans ignore romance games unless they contain one or more of the following:

1. polygon art (such as Virtually Date Ariane)
2. broad comedy (such as Love Hina Sim Date)
3. an outrageous premise (such as Hatoful Boyfriend)
4. a lot of complex gameplay (nearly all of what indie creators such as Sakevisual, Red Panda Games, and Okashi Studio have released)

I happen to be a fan who likes gameplay. I had been hoping for over ten years for any English version of any Tokimeki Memorial or Sakura Wars game...

Second, I looked at the most recent Lemma Soft thread about Katawa Shoujo. I had forgotten that in January 2012, I wrote, "I know that people liked the first chapter, but I was kinda 'meh' about it. I liked the character sprites, but I didn't find any aspects of the writing to be exceptionally good. Maybe I missed something..." It took me over a year to finally get around to KS.

Third, after years of reading both BxG harem and NSFW games, I'm still insecure about liking both of them. It's difficult to think of them as anything more than self insertion fantasies. I'm more comfortable with VNs that have different or no pairings.

I haven't been paying much attention to the graphics in KS. The sprites remind me of Doomfest's work on Memo. Every now and then, there will be an unexpected close-up. I didn't see this sort of effect in translated VNs until the people at insani.org started releasing demos, and I don't recall other WVNs that have used this effect.

The nurse seems like an interesting character. I would not mind seeing him in a GxB or BxB story.

The narration seems to dwell quite a bit on describing scenes and rooms. I'm not sure why. Likewise, some conversations seem to go on forever. One example: the characters just kept on talking and talking about the student council, but nothing is being decided.

The subject of school clubs is discussed. In some of my complex games, choosing a club and committing to it is an important part of the gameplay. Thinking about this makes me wish that KS had some simulation gameplay. I believe this could be done effectively... stat- building and schedule management can be merged well with storytelling.

Maybe it's just me, but Hanako reminds me of the character Rydia from Final Fantasy 4. (I realize that its storytelling seems shallow now, and its gameplay seems shallow... but in the context of early 90s games, FF4 had pretty good characterization and growth.)

Kenji seemed slightly eccentric in his first scene, and in his second scene, he starts sounding downright crazy. I'm not sure why. Then during his shower scene, his behavior still seems nonsensical at best.

Right after the scene in which the nurse and Rin are in the same room, there's an outdoor scene which seems to have bizarre, distracting graffiti. The characters talk about drawing something, but it took me several minutes to realize that Rin had created it, and that the graffiti was apparently a mural.

There's a scene in which the main character ends up on the roof with Emi and Rin. For a couple screens, there are two text boxes. I didn't think this could be done with Ren'py. How the creators do this? Were they using aliases in order to ask for technical help on Lemma Soft?

Red baskets are mentioned in the supermarket scene, but never explained.

Do I *want* to like this VN, or any of its characters? I really don't know. At the moment, It's difficult for me to be positive. Also, if it takes several more hours for the story to become interesting, then that seems like a large obstacle to enjoying it. Slow pacing is a problem that's also existed in some of the games I liked in the recent past. Several hours pass in Dragon Quest 7 before the first monster appears, and there's just a couple of fight sequences in Persona 4 in the several hours before the first dungeon.

[Nicol Armarfi]

I notice that you're making a lot of references to JRPGs, simulation games, and other eroge with RPG components, but hardly any actual visual novels. Might I suggest that perhaps you are coming at this from the wrong perspective? A visual novel is exactly what it sounds like; a choose your own adventure novel with pictures and sounds. Some people like to consider it a game but I've always felt that that's not quite the right category for a VN (and this is a topic we've discussed at length before in this forum). If you're willing to concede that KS is not in fact a game and that you're in for what is basically an ebook with pictures and sounds then you will probably enjoy it more. On the other hand if you're hoping for a simulation game or an intensely interactive experience you will be sorely disappointed, and that's fine too, maybe VNs just aren't your thing \o/ that's my 2 cents anyway.

Also, the split text box and the other effects you'll see in the game were programmed by our immensely talented 'engineer' delta.

[Xanatos]

I had been hoping for over ten years for any English version of any Tokimeki Memorial or Sakura Wars game...

One example: the characters just kept on talking and talking about the student council, but nothing is being decided.

The subject of school clubs is discussed. In some of my complex games, choosing a club and committing to it is an important part of the gameplay. Thinking about this makes me wish that KS had some simulation gameplay. I believe this could be done effectively... stat- building and schedule management can be merged well with storytelling.

Kenji seemed slightly eccentric in his first scene, and in his second scene, he starts sounding downright crazy. I'm not sure why. Then during his shower scene, his behavior still seems nonsensical at best.

...it took me several minutes to realize that Rin had created it, and that the graffiti was apparently a mural.

For a couple screens, there are two text boxes. I didn't think this could be done with Ren'py. How the creators do this? Were they using aliases in order to ask for technical help on Lemma Soft?

Red baskets are mentioned in the supermarket scene, but never explained.

1) There is an English 'Sakura Wars'.

2) Weird. People talk but don't actually say anything hugely relevant. It's almost like...Oh, I dunno, actual conversations that real people have? Wacky.

3) This is not a stat-management or sim game. Look elsewhere for that. It can't work with the story they built here.

4) ...Whoa. Kenji sounds crazy and odd? That's fucked up. It's almost like he's comedy relief or something. Most unorthodox!

5) ...Okay? You took a while to get it was a mural. Why is that worth noting in particular?

6) They used Ren'py. You know, that thing they made the entire game with. That thing that can do the thing you just described. Yeah, they used that. Did you stop to consider that maybe the people who worked with Ren'py for an entire game would know its functions more than someone who just "thought" about the program? But no, you're right. They totally made aliases and secretly went forum-hopping to get that done. Totally, Kenji.

7) What's to explain? Baskets exist. Some are red. It's not some deep metaphor or plot device. This ain't Twin Peaks.

[lukesrp]

I had been hoping for over ten years for any English version of any Tokimeki Memorial or Sakura Wars game...

One example: the characters just kept on talking and talking about the student council, but nothing is being decided.

The subject of school clubs is discussed. In some of my complex games, choosing a club and committing to it is an important part of the gameplay. Thinking about this makes me wish that KS had some simulation gameplay. I believe this could be done effectively... stat- building and schedule management can be merged well with storytelling.

Kenji seemed slightly eccentric in his first scene, and in his second scene, he starts sounding downright crazy. I'm not sure why. Then during his shower scene, his behavior still seems nonsensical at best.

...it took me several minutes to realize that Rin had created it, and that the graffiti was apparently a mural.

For a couple screens, there are two text boxes. I didn't think this could be done with Ren'py. How the creators do this? Were they using aliases in order to ask for technical help on Lemma Soft?

Red baskets are mentioned in the supermarket scene, but never explained.

1) There is an English 'Sakura Wars'.

2) Weird. People talk but don't actually say anything hugely relevant. It's almost like...Oh, I dunno, actual conversations that real people have? Wacky.

3) This is not a stat-management or sim game. Look elsewhere for that. It can't work with the story they built here.

4) ...Whoa. Kenji sounds crazy and odd? That's fucked up. It's almost like he's comedy relief or something. Most unorthodox!

5) ...Okay? You took a while to get it was a mural. Why is that worth noting in particular?

6) They used Ren'py. You know, that thing they made the entire game with. That thing that can do the thing you just described. Yeah, they used that. Did you stop to consider that maybe the people who worked with Ren'py for an entire game would know its functions more than someone who just "thought" about the program? But no, you're right. They totally made aliases and secretly went forum-hopping to get that done. Totally, Kenji.

7) What's to explain? Baskets exist. Some are red. It's not some deep metaphor or plot device. This ain't Twin Peaks.

This

It seems like every time gekiganwing posts all he is doing is pointing out the most minuscule of flaws. Either that or he is comparing the game to a game of no likeness or comparison.

What I think you should do gekiganwing is the play the game with an open mind. Don't play the game hoping to find all the faults in it, play it have fun, to think. What you seem to be constantly listing are things that nobody has complained about except you. For example Rin's mural.

Play or don't play it, but I would rather you didn't come onto a dedicated website to the game and do nothing but badmouth it and point out flaws.

[pandaphil]

I'm just impressed that he's posted 46 times in a forum about a VN that he doesn't particularly care for.

[Xanatos]

flaws.

I feel like "flaws" should be in quote marks. There aren't real flaws he's pointing out.

"There's a red basket they don't explain!" (Because it's a basket, not anything requiring explanation)...

"I didn't get that it was a mural!" (The game states it's a mural)...

"Kenji is WACKY AND UNORTHODOX BLEGHBLEH!" (Seriously?)...

"They OBVIOUSLY made fake names and went to other forums to get other people to work for them because this thing they did totally can't be done with Ren'py!" (Okay. Whatever you say, Kenji. )...

[gekiganwing]

Yes, I have been rather critical, and I probably focus too much on small details. But if I have free time in the next few days, I will try to resume reading KS.

Nicol Armarfi: I wandered into visual novel fandom quite a few years ago, and I've been active on Lemma Soft for quite some time. I try to adjust my expectations for media formats... but if there is a time when I'm bored or cynical, then I might start making unfair comparisons.

Xanatos: I bought the English version of Sakura Wars 5 on day one. (Unfortunately, I was apparently one of only a dozen or so people who did.) It was flawed but enjoyable. I will say the same thing in regards to the two Tokimemo Girl's Side DS games that were fan translated.

Also, I recall seeing a thread on /jp/ in which some individual stated that nothing good had ever been made with Ren'py. It left me discouraged, and I haven't tried to use the program since then.

[Xanatos]

Also, I recall seeing a thread on /jp/ in which some individual stated that nothing good had ever been made with Ren'py. It left me discouraged, and I haven't tried to use the program since then.

Same sort who says nothing good ever came of RPG Maker but Corpse Party is an ongoing series with PSP installments, mangas, and anime adaptations. To say nothing of the porn doujins...In short: Fuck those guys.

And I think these posts here are a good bit more than "overly critical". You've critiqued the presence of comedy and the characters talking without accomplishing anything (I.E. a basic element of entertainment and realistic conversation)

[ProfAllister]

You title this thread "giving KS a chance".

You then proceed to list each and every possible objection that can come to mind as to why you shouldn't enjoy this.

I'm sensing a slight contradiction here.

It's a visual novel. Nothing more, nothing less. There are really only two "game" elements involved - making choices and getting 100% completion. This is by design, so you can't call it a flaw.

It's a story. Let the story happen. You aren't past Act 1 yet. It's possibly a valid objection that Act 1 is too long. That being said, there's a pretty marked difference between Act 1 and any given Acts 2-4.

Just to point it out before you have that on your list of "why I was right to ignore this game," yes, the art can be inconsistent, and there are some serious mistakes, especially with anatomy, on certain CGs.

If you want to look at the details, focus on what it does better than stock VNs. You've seen a lot of stuff already that doesn't show up in too many VNs, but didn't bother to take note of it.

There are many things that happen in KS that can't be done with vanilla Renpy. KS used a custom build. Any half-decent programmer can modify things on a system like Renpy (not to diminish the effort involved, of course).

Not to be mean, but you almost come off as if you're trolling. I doubt you are, but that's the tone you're giving.

If you really intend to "give KS a chance," approach it with an open mind. And pay attention to what people say are its best elements - specifically, the music, the direction, and the (post-Act 1) story. We all know KS isn't perfect. You're getting a lot of negative feedback because you're saying "this visual novel is a terrible video game." Frankly, that position deserves as much respect as someone eating a steak and complaining that it's the worst omelette he's ever tasted.

[Xanatos]

Frankly, that position deserves as much respect as someone eating a steak and complaining that it's the worst omelette he's ever tasted.

Or someone who puts ketchup on steak...

[gekiganwing]

I took some time to read topics about Katawa Shoujo on other forums. I was not sure if anyone on Megatokyo, Mangagamer, or JAST would like it, but I was surprised to see about half of the posts were positive. By comparison, there was more negativity in the most recent Lemma Soft thread. Also, I was surprised to find some positive comments on Crunchyroll, GameFAQs, Oh Internet, the Sankaku Complex thread, and even in the X Button column on Anime News Network. I expect my fellow fans to be negative, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

Thank you for being patient with me, especially since I've been alone and irritable lately. I will resume reading KS later today.

Xanatos: I don't actually think that any software program or creative tool is inherently bad. Sorry for sending the wrong message. What I *should* have stated is that it's rare to find English speaking fans who don't think all visual novels are degrading sub-literate porn. Furthermore, it's extremely rare to find fans who honestly like OELVNs, and who think that they can be anything besides poorly written and illustrated imitations. (In case you're wondering, I dislike the term "OEL," and I try to avoid using it.)

ProfAllister: I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "stock VNs." If you ask me what that term means, I would say average slice of life stories with cute aesthetics, harem style relationships, and some porn. Examples that I'm familiar with include Heart de Roommate, Snow Sakura, and Canvas 2. I read all three and enjoyed them, but I consider them guilty pleasures.

You talked about focusing on what KS does better. So far, I have seen a couple phrases of dialogue and moments of narration that make me wonder if I might like KS. To be specific, there have been statements about the main character having kinship with the other characters, thinking of them as equals, and feeling at home in the academy. Those make me think that the story could be heartwarming. Please let me know what aspects of KS you thought were exceptionally good or different. I'm not trying to be a troll. I'm asking because it's not easy for me to fight my cynicism.

Two side notes: 1. I'm really bad at noticing art inconsistencies and errors. 2. I've become so pessimistic about music that I don't know if I have any ability to judge music as good or bad.

[Nobody in Particular]

I took some time to read topics about Katawa Shoujo on other forums. I was not sure if anyone on Megatokyo, Mangagamer, or JAST would like it, but I was surprised to see about half of the posts were positive. By comparison, there was more negativity in the most recent Lemma Soft thread. Also, I was surprised to find some positive comments on Crunchyroll, GameFAQs, Oh Internet, the Sankaku Complex thread, and even in the X Button column on Anime News Network. I expect my fellow fans to be negative, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

From what I have seen, there are only really two kinds of people that seem to hate Katawa Shoujo. People who don't like the genre (slice of life, romance, drama. Like Yume Miru Kusuri) or VN elitists. Most that were into the VN medium before KS tend to rate it as a good VN at the minimum.

Also you're making assumptions on the game while you're still at the beginning. If you really are experienced in VNs you should know that they have a tendency to start off slow and actually improve (a lot) when the routes start.

I expect my fellow fans to be negative, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

You shouldn't have your experience of KS influenced by the opinions of others. Although it would explain the nitpicking.

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy the game!

[pandaphil]

Not to be snarky gekiganwing, but how about actually sitting down and playing through an arc or two before you critique?