Shizune Arc (misha, jigoro)

[metalangel]

@Liminaut:
 
That is a pretty reasonable list, yes (apart from the age six thing which I’m unsure of). The typo is a common one, I see it a lot.
 
@Mirage_GSM:
 
That’s right. The people who are Deaf that I know who use spoken language vary greatly from person to person in terms of how clear their speech is. Some choose to go ‘voice off’ because they don’t like their ‘Deaf accent’ or because they prefer to communicate using sign.
 

The North American Deaf community reviles people for getting cochlear implants to regain their hearing, too, branding them traitors. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in it.

I absolutely do put stock in it, it’s their community and culture and language. The most hardline militant members do indeed hate CIs; however, the general view as I’ve encountered it is more than CIs are not the panacea/miracle cure they’re made out to be. They don’t work in every situation, get uncomfortable after long periods, are expensive, and don’t provide perfect or sometimes even clear hearing. It’s all down to the individual and it’s said that for many children, the effort expended trying to understand speech through a CI leaves one mentally tired and gets in the way of learning. The preferred approach is to offer both HAs/CIs and sign as options, teach both at the same time, and let the user decide which they prefer. You can be voice-off Deaf but still wear HAs.

I can't perceive radio waves, but I communicate using them all the time…

If you’re not going to take this seriously, I won’t bother talking to you. You don’t communicate using the radio waves directly, you use them to transmit information that is then reproduced in a form that you can perceive. In the case of your car radio, sound.

All things being equal, I'm inclined to say anything Jigoro wants is unreasonable. And, no, a deaf person can't learn not to be deaf. However, it is completely possible for a deaf (or Deaf) person to learn to get along ok in the hearing world. I've known several who did it just fine.

[/quote]

There’s a difference between just ‘getting along’ and having a decent, happy life. That one guy who you claim had a ‘90% success rate’ reading lips is very much the exception. Consider what I said above, that their trying to accommodate you is requiring a lot more effort on their part than you accommodating them.

[brythain]

For story purposes, I'm more interested in how Shizune, deprived of a major stereo-perceptive sense, copes with it. Her eyesight and sense of touch and vibration must be very important to her. I've lived life with most of the usual perceptions, so I'm not in the best position for someone aspiring to write from her POV. I can only guess unless enlightened by someone with more experience.

I also wonder a lot about how traumatic her family situation was, and whether it would have made her behave in ways that others might consider a little sociopathic or psychopathic. I mean, she has a sword-wielding father who rants at people at the drop of a hat, a missing mother, and a brother who apparently tries to emulate her while being otherwise quite normal. And that's just at home…

[Liminaut]

Just were are you getting the idea that Shizune used to be able to hear but lost the ability when she was young? I don't recall anything in the game that suggests that.

The relevant quote is during the visit to Shizune's house. In the last conversation between Hisao and Jigoro, Jigoro says "She stopped talking to me for twelve years". Since Shizune is 18, that implies a period of 6 years when she was talking. I think the most reasonable time slicing is that she lost her hearing, and her ability to speak effectively, when she was 6.

[metalangel]

The relevant quote is during the visit to Shizune's house. In the last conversation between Hisao and Jigoro, Jigoro says "She stopped talking to me for twelve years". Since Shizune is 18, that implies a period of 6 years when she was talking. I think the most reasonable time slicing is that she lost her hearing, and her ability to speak effectively, when she was 6.

It's just as logical to conclude she wasn't communicating orally. "Talking", especially in these circumstances, doesn't necessarily mean speaking aloud.

[Liminaut]

The relevant quote is during the visit to Shizune's house. In the last conversation between Hisao and Jigoro, Jigoro says "She stopped talking to me for twelve years". Since Shizune is 18, that implies a period of 6 years when she was talking. I think the most reasonable time slicing is that she lost her hearing, and her ability to speak effectively, when she was 6.

It's just as logical to conclude she wasn't communicating orally. "Talking", especially in these circumstances, doesn't necessarily mean speaking aloud.

The statement "She stopped talking to me for twelve years" implies that Shizune was talking to him for six out of her eighteen years. There are a few options here.

1) Shizune became deaf at 6, perhaps after an infection. 'Talking' in this case is meant literally. The therapists were brought in to teach Shizune to speak.
2) Shizune has always been communicating with her father on some level, but early on stopped meaningful communication. 'Talking' is now means 'meaningful communication'. However, in this situation there is the issue of the therapists and specialists -- in this context, what kind of therapists did Jigoro bring in? It might have been mental therapists to address whatever emotional issues caused his daughter to stop meaningful communication. There is another issue here: how did Shizune and Jigoro 'talk' before age six? Shizune would not have been able to write for most of that time. It may be that Jigoro is being metaphoric here and 'talk' meant 'open, non-verbal communication between a father and daughter' -- smiles, hugs, that kind of thing.

I think Occam's razor favors 1), but 2) is certainly viable.

[Potato]

The North American Deaf community reviles people for getting cochlear implants to regain their hearing, too, branding them traitors.

Traitors? ...To what? Being deaf? That is unbelievably stupid if true...


Anyway, whether Shizune was talking for six years or not, Jigoro still has to be a stubborn idiot to think Shizune's just willingly refusing to get better as opposed to, just maybe, the therapy being shit. And if we take 'talking' in his quote to simply mean 'meaningful communication', well...Still can't blame her too much. Jigoro's "I'M GONNA TEACH YOU TO BE NORMAL, 'KAY?!" attitude is kind of repulsive. Of course, if Shizune just picked up a damned notepad, they could at least manage something...Honestly, a sound beating over the head would do both of them some good.

[Guest Poster]

If Shizune's mom isn't alive anymore, it could be that Shizune lost her at the age of 6. It could be that previous to that point, Shizune would interact with her father (not literally talk) due to her mom acting as the motivator and in-between. After Mayoi passed away, the main link between the two was gone and seeing how Jigoro seems a little bit like an exaggerated version of Shizune in some ways, it's quite possible he didn't provide her with a lot of comfort and they couldn't really deal with one another any longer. It's one of the few situations I can imagine that would cause a 6-year old to stop communicating with her dad.

[Kutagh]

The North American Deaf community reviles people for getting cochlear implants to regain their hearing, too, branding them traitors.

Traitors? ...To what? Being deaf? That is unbelievably stupid if true...[...]

Just like the Jihad portion of the Muslims... You know, those that strap bombs to themselves and blow innocent people up? Often for simply not being Muslim?
There often are over-radicalized people in communities. Just like that there are orthodox religious and others less so. Some are conservative, others are progressive. Some are religious, others aren't.

Stop talking if you're only going to consider things only from your own point of view. Those people have their own point of view and while I don't agree with them (including branding CI users traitors), I do get why they view it like that.

[Steinherz]

Just were are you getting the idea that Shizune used to be able to hear but lost the ability when she was young? I don't recall anything in the game that suggests that.

In fact, I'd be inclined to question the legitimacy of this Jigoro's wealth.

Maybe his wife is the rich one.

Well, she is the sister of Lilly's father, and it's implied that Akira is in his family business, so.... very likely.

And if we take 'talking' in his quote to simply mean 'meaningful communication', well...Still can't blame her too much. Jigoro's "I'M GONNA TEACH YOU TO BE NORMAL, 'KAY?!" attitude is kind of repulsive. Of course, if Shizune just picked up a damned notepad, they could at least manage something...Honestly, a sound beating over the head would do both of them some good.

Condensed version: They're both thick-headed and stubborn, and it's obvious where Shizune gets that portion of her personality from

If Shizune's mom isn't alive anymore, it could be that Shizune lost her at the age of 6. It could be that previous to that point, Shizune would interact with her father (not literally talk) due to her mom acting as the motivator and in-between. After Mayoi passed away, the main link between the two was gone and seeing how Jigoro seems a little bit like an exaggerated version of Shizune in some ways, it's quite possible he didn't provide her with a lot of comfort and they couldn't really deal with one another any longer. It's one of the few situations I can imagine that would cause a 6-year old to stop communicating with her dad.

She could also be in Scotland visiting Lilly's sick aunt


And I tend to view that Jigoro's "she stopped talking to me" as actually meaning "meaningful communication". Realistically, it seems more reasonable that Shizune only communicates with Jigoro in the most minimal form that the whole "Shizune completely stopped acknowledging her father" thing.

[Guest Poster]

Well, she is the sister of Lilly's father, and it's implied that Akira is in his family business, so.... very likely.

Even if the Satous are extremely rich, that doesn't mean Jigoro has access to the fortune of his wife's parents. He'd have to marry into the Satou family for that, instead of Mayoi marrying into his.

Of course, it's perfectly possible Jigoro's family is rich as well. Shizune says her family has quite a few connections, so who knows.

She could also be in Scotland visiting Lilly's sick aunt

I doubt it. Lilly's sick aunt isn't a relative of Shizune's mom and it's suggested that there hasn't been a great deal of interaction between the families due to the mutual dislike between Jigoro and Lilly's dad.

[Potato]

Just like the Jihad portion of the Muslims... You know, those that strap bombs to themselves and blow innocent people up? Often for simply not being Muslim?
There often are over-radicalized people in communities. Just like that there are orthodox religious and others less so. Some are conservative, others are progressive. Some are religious, others aren't.

Stop talking if you're only going to consider things only from your own point of view. Those people have their own point of view and while I don't agree with them (including branding CI users traitors), I do get why they view it like that.

I fail to see your point. Yes, a lot of communities have extreme segments. So? I never suggested otherwise. And whether I 'get' why they hold such views or not doesn't really change anything. To borrow your...Rather excessive Jihadist comparison...I understand the reasoning of suicide bombers just fine but I still think they're idiots because their reasoning is still asinine and ridiculous. Understanding does not preclude judgement. That is my point of view and if your reaction to different views is immediately "stop talking", well, perhaps you're not much of an authority on consideration.

@GP: That does seem the most likely scenario if we exclude the possibility of Shizune having been able to talk at one point. Which, given that we have zero evidence of her ever being able to talk (beyond Jigoro vaguely discussing 'talking')...I'd say is pretty reasonable. Her route really could've used more backstory...And less Jigoro.

the mutual dislike between Jigoro and everyone everywhere except Jigoro.

Fixed your typo.

[metalangel]

I fail to see your point. Yes, a lot of communities have extreme segments. So? I never suggested otherwise. And whether I 'get' why they hold such views or not doesn't really change anything. To borrow your...Rather excessive Jihadist comparison...I understand the reasoning of suicide bombers just fine but I still think they're idiots because their reasoning is still asinine and ridiculous. Understanding does not preclude judgement. That is my point of view and if your reaction to different views is immediately "stop talking", well, perhaps you're not much of an authority on consideration.

Do you understand why the controversy exists? Or are you immediately dismissing it as preposterous?

[Liminaut]

There's another aspect to Shizune's deafness that got mentioned a while ago and got dropped and that's what is Shizune doing in 3-3 and not the hearing impaired class (3-1 if memory serves)? She doesn't seem to have any contact with that class.

There is an obvious plot reason, and that is to meet Hisao ( complete weirdness that just sprang into my head: "The prophecies have promised that the One will come here, and I will claim him, and then the Blind One, my ancient enemy, will be confounded and I will dance in her tears forever"). I want to set that aside, and think about what it says about Shizune.

Shizune doesn't have have any friends except for Misha, period. This is fairly weird for somebody following her life path of trying to be a charismatic leader. My understanding is that she has driven a lot of people that have tried to become friends, or at least be in the student council with her, into the ground. For both Misha and Hisao in her path, they follow her completely. They have very little disagreement, and often simply follow her lead. My impression is that Shizune would turn every disagreement, not matter how small, into a win-at-all-costs struggle. Look at what happened when Shizune and Hisao got into a struggle over curry bread (if memory serves, I'm not sure exactly what it was). They could have split it, instead they play rock-paper-scissors for winner take all.

But there is still the issue of why Shizune isn't in the deaf class. I think in most countries outside of Japan deaf people would be mainstreamed as much as possible and put into non-deaf classes -- certainly in the US that has become the case (and yes, there are several people reading this that know more than I do that can set me straight if I'm wrong. Please do so). It's been reasonable that Shizune's family has strong Western ties. The main family company is headquartered in Scotland. Jigoro is a consultant, which is weird in Japan but pretty standard in Western countries. So it may be that Shizune simply wants a Western mainstreaming experience. After all, if she wants to be an executive, she will have to be able to work in an environment where she is the only deaf person.

I'm surprised that she doesn't get more involved with computers. All the VN paperwork is just that: paperwork. If memory serves again, when the new student council comes in they want to start using a rather decrepit laptop as a step up. There is a big deal made about the effort to manage the receipts at the end of the first festival, when having a simple account program would have made the process trivial. Hell, having a spreadsheet would have solved the problem. Having better access to computers would solve a lot of communication problems. I once had a deaf student that would make phone calls with a voice synthesizer and speech recognition software.

[Kutagh]

Just like the Jihad portion of the Muslims... You know, those that strap bombs to themselves and blow innocent people up? Often for simply not being Muslim?
There often are over-radicalized people in communities. Just like that there are orthodox religious and others less so. Some are conservative, others are progressive. Some are religious, others aren't.

Stop talking if you're only going to consider things only from your own point of view. Those people have their own point of view and while I don't agree with them (including branding CI users traitors), I do get why they view it like that.

I fail to see your point. Yes, a lot of communities have extreme segments. So? I never suggested otherwise. And whether I 'get' why they hold such views or not doesn't really change anything. To borrow your...Rather excessive Jihadist comparison...I understand the reasoning of suicide bombers just fine but I still think they're idiots because their reasoning is still asinine and ridiculous. Understanding does not preclude judgement. That is my point of view and if your reaction to different views is immediately "stop talking", well, perhaps you're not much of an authority on consideration.

So all you got to say is that the radical Deaf community is stupid, without contributing anything to the discussion or giving any arguments to discuss? Honestly, you could as well just haven't said anything because nobody here likes stupid one-liners... Or should I just post an one-liner saying that you're a troll? Please do prove me wrong and show that you are able of nuancing things.

[metalangel]

Shizune doesn't have have any friends except for Misha, period. This is fairly weird for somebody following her life path of trying to be a charismatic leader. My understanding is that she has driven a lot of people that have tried to become friends, or at least be in the student council with her, into the ground. For both Misha and Hisao in her path, they follow her completely. They have very little disagreement, and often simply follow her lead. My impression is that Shizune would turn every disagreement, not matter how small, into a win-at-all-costs struggle. Look at what happened when Shizune and Hisao got into a struggle over curry bread (if memory serves, I'm not sure exactly what it was). They could have split it, instead they play rock-paper-scissors for winner take all.

Misha is smitten and Hisao has no willpower due his depression. You could theorize that she's her father's daughter, she just doesn't know how to relate to people in spite of her good intentions.

But there is still the issue of why Shizune isn't in the deaf class. I think in most countries outside of Japan deaf people would be mainstreamed as much as possible and put into non-deaf classes -- certainly in the US that has become the case (and yes, there are several people reading this that know more than I do that can set me straight if I'm wrong. Please do so). It's been reasonable that Shizune's family has strong Western ties. The main family company is headquartered in Scotland. Jigoro is a consultant, which is weird in Japan but pretty standard in Western countries. So it may be that Shizune simply wants a Western mainstreaming experience. After all, if she wants to be an executive, she will have to be able to work in an environment where she is the only deaf person.

Mainstreaming depends entirely on where you are. Last year I lived across the street from my city's main grade school for the Deaf, and I attended high school at a school with a big, specialized Deaf/HoH department where some students would have one or two mainstreamed classes but otherwise were taught in ASL by Deaf teachers. There are several more big schools for the Deaf in my region, and the general experience (of the older generations, at least) was to go to a residential school. Nowadays they are more likely to have the family move near the school, but again, it all varies.

I'm surprised that she doesn't get more involved with computers. All the VN paperwork is just that: paperwork. If memory serves again, when the new student council comes in they want to start using a rather decrepit laptop as a step up. There is a big deal made about the effort to manage the receipts at the end of the first festival, when having a simple account program would have made the process trivial. Hell, having a spreadsheet would have solved the problem.

Shizune is very hands on, you might have noticed. One of her leadership qualities (albeit forced by the size of the Student Council) is that she gets her hands dirty too.

Having better access to computers would solve a lot of communication problems. I once had a deaf student that would make phone calls with a voice synthesizer and speech recognition software.

Ugh. The people who are Deaf that I know overwhelmingly prefer text messaging and similar services (like Facebook, BBM, or email) to something like that. Before it was Blackberries and two-way pagers, now iPhones or even iPod Touches are popular because an iPod can use iMessage, which is free! Unfortunately, in Canada, Video Relay Services (where you are connected to an interpreter) aren't available like the are in the US - yet.